arnoldo

What significance can be determined by possible similarities between Justin Martyr and Athenagoras of Athens appeal towards the Roman Emperor for fair treatment of Christians? The following is a sample of their writings;

Duvduv

Well, considering that the Athenagoras letter was probably not originally a Christian document and was adopted as such seeing as how the Christ is never mentioned. Someone just replaced another name with the word Christian.

Justin's Apology is probably a cut and paste job with similar roots. He knows about some obscure document stored in a dusty archive in Rome but can't even identify the name of a single apostle who wrote the so-called Memoirs, the name of his Old Man who told him about Christ, or how that Old Man found out about Christ.

arnoldo

Could be. . another allegedly second century document, Lucian of Samosata : The Passing Of Peregrinus , doesn’t mention Christ either. However, this writing along with Justin and Athenagoras’ writings may’ve been edited to give the impression of an established Christian community existing throughout the Roman Empire during the second century.

Duvduv

Except that they forgot about the main player of Christianity.

GakuseiDon

Excellent topic! You can see how both are appealing to the Emperors as fellow philosophers, stressing the philosophical credentials of Christianity, suggesting that the Romans still viewed Christians as a superstitious sect.

What is interesting to me is how both they and other Christian apologists of the Second Century:
1. Use the Hebrew Scriptures to support their arguments
2. Claim that the Roman gods were in fact demons pretending to be those gods, or were creations of stories inspired by demons.

Why would they think that the Emperors would take the Hebrew Scriptures as authoritative? It suggests an on-going fascination and appreciation that Romans had with those scriptures.

And why would the Christians think they would get anywhere by running down the Roman gods? "We want leniency, and oh by the way, your gods are rubbish!" I think it suggests a wide-spread skepticism amongst the Romans towards their own gods. I suspect that the popularity of a renewed Platonism was revising the philosophical landscape of the intellectual world of the time.

Here is Athenagoras:

If we satisfied ourselves with advancing such considerations as these, our doctrines might by some be looked upon as human. But, since the voices of the prophets confirm our arguments--for I think that you also, with your great zeal for knowledge, and your great attainments in learning, cannot be ignorant of the writings either of Moses or of Isaiah and Jeremiah, and the other prophets...

These angels, then, who have fallen from heaven, and haunt the air and the earth, and are no longer able to rise to heavenly things, and the souls of the giants, which are the demons who wander about the world, perform actions similar, the one (that is, the demons) to the natures they have received, the other (that is, the angels) to the appetites they have indulged...

They who draw men to idols, then, are the aforesaid demons, who are eager for the blood of the sacrifices, and lick them; but the gods that please the multitude, and whose names are given to the images, were men, as may be learned from their history. And that it is the demons who act under their names, is proved by the nature of their operations. For some castrate, as Rhea; others wound and slaughter, as Artemis; the Tauric goddess puts all strangers to death.

Justin Martyr:

There were, then, among the Jews certain men who were prophets of God, through whom the prophetic Spirit published beforehand things that were to come to pass, ere ever they happened. And their prophecies, as they were spoken and when they were uttered, the kings who happened to be reigning among the Jews at the several times carefully preserved in their possession, when they had been arranged in books by the prophets themselves in their own Hebrew language. And when Ptolemy king of Egypt formed a library, and endeavoured to collect the writings of all men, he heard also of these prophets, and sent to Herod, who was at that time king of the Jews, requesting that the books of the prophets be sent to him. And Herod the king did indeed send them, written, as they were, in the foresaid Hebrew language. And when their contents were found to be unintelligible to the Egyptians, he again sent and requested that men be commissioned to translate them into the Greek language. And when this was done, the books remained with the Egyptians, where they are until now. They are also in the possession of all Jews throughout the world; but they, though they read, do not understand what is said, but count us foes and enemies; and, like yourselves, they kill and punish us whenever they have the power, as you can well believe. For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy...

But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things.

Vorkosigan

Haha. I think rather than suggesting widespread skepticism, since even people with privately skeptical stances have to take publicly affirming stances, it rather suggests that the documents are produced for some other audience, namely, the believers in those gods from whom new Christians were being recruited.

Christian missionaries do the same thing all over the world. I remember how shocked I was that a longtime missionary here who had worked many years and admirably for the Taiwan independence and democracy movement burst out that the Taiwanese going to Confucian temples were engaged in idol worship and proceeded to give a list of the sins of local gods that looks akin to these. He could spot authoritarianism in others, but he couldn't see his own.

Vorkosigan

aa5874

The writings of Athenagoras and Justin Martyr do NOT appear to have been manipulated. We know how manipulated writings should look by examining "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus.

When apologetic writings are manipulated they tend to contain characters like Paul, Luke, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Hegesippus, Polycarp, Barnabas, Timothy, the list of Roman bishops, passages from books called the Gospel of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles and Epistles of Paul, Peter, James, John and Jude

The writings of Athenagoras are extremely significant because they corroborate Justin Martyr who stated that there were people called Christians who did NOT believe or accepted the Jesus story.

Athenagoras called himself a Christians but believed in God ONLY, NOT Jesus or Christ--just God. But, also Athenagoras did NOT accept that sacrifices should be made to a God.

Athenagoras wrote NOTHING about Jesus, the disciples, Paul and NOTHING about Universal Salvation by the crucifixion or resurrection.

It is NOT expected that an INTERPOLATOR would have forgotten to write that Athenagoras believed in Jesus Christ.

However, probably the most significant writer of the 2nd century is Justin Martyr. This writer claimed to be a Christian who believed in Jesus Christ but does NOT corroborate other Apologetic sources.


Justin Martyr wrote NOTHING about Gospels called Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the Apostles, Nothing about the Epistles of Paul, James, John, Jude, Peter and to Hebrews.

Justin Martyr wrote NOTHING about Bishops of any part of the Roman Empire or named his own bishop.

Justin Martyr did NOT name any well known christian writer or evangelist/teacher of his time but quite remarkably Justin wrote about Simon Magus, Menander, Basilides, Justinus, the Marcians, Saturnilus, Marcion and other Heretics.

Justin Martyr EXPOSED that the Jesus cult was not well established up to the mid 2nd century and that there was a 120 years BLACK HOLE between the Jesus story and 150 CE.
Justin Martyr could NOT FIND any history of the Jesus movement from the supposed ascension c 33 CE to c 150 CE.

It is also of significant to note that when Justin Martyr argue against Trypho about Jesus Christ the author used Hewbrew Scripture and Memoirs of the Apostles and Revelation by John,

The writings of Justin Martyr appear to be COMPATIBLE with non-apologetic sources--there is NO history of the disciples, Paul and their supposed writings.

Justin Martyr's writings fundamentally Contradict other Apologetic sources that give the impression that the Jesus movement was well established.

Duvduv

So Athenagoras believed his Christians were anointed by whom to do what and believe in what exactly? He never says. Where else are there claims of anointed Christians who live somewhere but who don't believe in Jesus or anything recognizeable?
Nowhere! And where else is there any information of a community of believers of Justin's sect?
Nowhere! Not a single blessed name of a single colleague or community in his entire Apology. Nothing. Nada. Zippo. Because there wasn't one. It was all made up as things moved along.Justin couldn't even name his Old Man or anything about him because the Old Man didn't exist.
The beginnings of Christ ideas before a Paul was created.

And Paul didn't even know what Justin knew about messianic verses in the Tanakh.

aa5874

Well, that is precisely why they are NOT manipulated sources. Again, if they were manipulated they would look like "Against Heresies".

Athenagoras and Justin tend to show that the Jesus movement was at its very early stage in the mid 2nd century and was NOT well known.

It is very important to understand that Paul and the Pauline letters with Acts of the Apostles were fabricated giving the FALSE Impression that the Jesus movement was well established in the Roman Empire at least 100 years earlier.

However, in Justin's and Athenagors' writings it would appear that the Roman people, the Senate and Emperor did NOT know much about the Jesus movement.

Once it is understood that the Jesus movement was started or was in its very early stage in the mid 2nd century then we will quickly realize that the Pauline writings are bogus and were COMPLETELY unknown as appears to be confirmed by Athenagoras and Justin.

Justin and Athenagoras knew NOTHING of Four Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings but Irenaeus a supposed contemporary knows EVERY Pauline Epistle , Acts of the Apostles ,the authors of Four Gospels, and ALL the Bishops of Rome..

Why are these NOT in Justin and Athenagoras???

The answer is rather simple they were NOT manipulated.

We know what manipulated sources look like. We have "Against Heresies".

GakuseiDon

Yes, that's a point; they were for internal consumption only, and not actually sent. "Hey guys, I just told the Emperor off and good. And here's the letter I just sent to him!" I'm not aware of any evidence that those letters were actually received by the Emperor and the Senate, so it is a possibility.