Huon

Spartacus was a man who lived between ca. 120 BCE to ca. 70 BCE. His life was described by Plutarch (ca. 46 CE –127), Florus (ca. 70 CE – ca. 140) and Appian (ca. 90 – ca. 160), that is more than 150 years after the death of Spartacus. Spartacus was initially the leader of a group of 70 gladiators. This group growed to 6,000 partisans, and was defeated in 71 BCE by Crassus, who is also well known by the description of other events of his military career. The 6,000 followers of Spartacus were crucified along the Via Appia, which is still well known, between Rome and Naples. Spartacus disappeared. His body was never found.

This character, Spartacus, is a historical Spartacus. Spartacus is also considered a hero by the communist movement, much like Che Guevara.

Jesus was a man (problem #1) who lived between ca. 4 BCE and ca. 30 BCE. His life was described by the Gospels (ca. 50 CE – ca. 150), that is more than 30 years (and probably more than 50 years, but let us be generous) after the death of Jesus. Jesus was initially the leader of a group of 12 people. This group growed to 500 sympathisers, and was considered a danger for the Roman Empire. Then, Jesus was crucified, perhaps with two followers, by Pilate, who is also well known by the description of other events of his political career. Jesus died. But, three days later (1 Cor. 15,3 for the exact date), he revived (Resurrection, problem #2). During this second period of his life, Jesus appeared to many people, comforted his followers, showed indiscutably his divine nature, entered into an immortal life, and in the end, was elevated into Heaven by his own power (Ascension, problem #3) in presence of his disciples the fortieth day after his Resurrection. It is narrated in Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51, and in the first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.

This character, Jesus-Christ, man, is perhaps a historical Jesus. Jesus-Christ is also considered a (second) god by the Christian movement (problems #1 #2, #3, and some more).

spin

I'm sorry but Spartacus is mentioned by the near contemporaries

Livy (Periochae 95.2):

Seventy-four gladiators escaped from the school of Lentulus at Capua, gathered a large number of slaves and workhouse prisoners, began a war under command of Crixus and Spartacus, and defeated the army of praetor Publius Varenus and his deputy Claudius Pulcher.

and Cicero (a letter to Atticus (A VI, 2)):

But now I return to yourself. Do you really, Atticus, mean to say-- you, the panegyrist of my integrity and [p. 153] punctilious honour--"do you venture out of your own mouth" (to quote Ennius) to ask me to give Scaptius cavalry to help him to exact the money? Would you, if you were with me--and you say in your letter that you are sometimes sore at heart to think that you are not with me--would you have suffered me to do so, even if I had wished it? "Not more than fifty," you say. There were fewer than that with Spartacus at first.

Try again.


spin

Amaleq13

You might want to consider tweeking a couple details but I see where you're going and they may not be ultimately relevant.

Given the varying names and numbers offered by the evidence, "12" might have been symbolic rather than literal. Your point doesn't require the number to be specified, right?

The "500" is a post-resurrection number but the timing of this statement indicates it is pre-resurrection.

That is an interesting notion but contrary to the available evidence. I also don't think it is necessary to your point.

Carry on. :thumbs:

Huon

spin, thank you, good remarks.

Amaleq13 :
Right, 12 is symbolic (oysters, eggs...), and also a remnant of some numerations, that's all. No problem.
Here also, 500 can be replaced by "some people".
Indeed, not necessary. Thank you, amaleq13

Doug Shaver

There is no contemporary evidence that the empire felt threatend by Christianity anytime during the first several decades of its existence.

Huon

In fact, the danger was much greater with Spartacus than with Jesus, for the Roman power, but, in both cases, the state could survive easily.

My question is : How is it that Spartacus is an undisputed historical character, while Jesus-Christ is disputed, in the controversy HJ vs MJ ?

I see at least 3 problems :

problem #1 : Jesus is a man and a god.
problem #2 : the Resurrection, which is one of the principal bases of the Christian religion.
problem #3 : the Ascension, consequence of the Resurrection.

Minimalist

Because there is a contemporary reference to Spartacus in Cicero's writings.
There are no contemporary references to jesus.

More to the point, people who should have heard of him, Philo for example, do not seem to know who he was.

Asha'man

The problem is that the primary documentation about Jesus is laced with obviously fictional elements. Every piece of documentation we have is very suspect, both in it's initial writing and in it's subsequent preservation and retelling. As soon as you depart from the documentation that contains obviously fictional elements, you find nothing else.

If the primary pieces of the story are entirely fictional, we really have no good reason to presume that the remainder of the story is anything other than fictional as well.

(Remember, the HJ/MJ discussion is almost entirely confined to atheist circles. We already reject the idea that Jesus is divine or that he was actually dead and resurrected. Once those items are accepted as fiction, there is little reason to believe any other parts of the story, except as an explanation for how the concept originated and spread.)