paarsurrey

Hi

We may leave them to GodAllahYHWH, the MostPowerful and MostMerciful.

Thanks

paarsurrey

Hi

Yes, I am quite comfortable here, and people here are generally friendly and scholarly while I am just a humble commoner. I think I have to learn many things from them.

The internet people you have accessed might have given their opinions off-hand only. For a serious viewpoint they should refer and quote from Quran - the first and foremost source of guidance for the true Muslim and the mankind alike.

I have read Quran myself from cover to cover,if not more then at least I think a hundred times. I don't remember finding the words Atheist or Agnostics or their synonyms written in Quran. Kindly request them, if you like, to quote from Quran in this connection.

Quran is peaceful to everybody; though Islam does not believe in "turning the other cheek" approach; as that is only bookish and not a rational teachings. Islam does not allow attacking a peaceful people; there is no need as Quran is full of bright arguments, people would be convinced with them in the very first place in a free society.

I think those ignorant Muslims of the Medievial dark ages, and their present followers, who just lost the grip on the true reasonable teachings, might have behaved in a wrongufl manner that others thought perhaps their's is the true Islamic/Quranic/Muhammad's teachings. That is simply their ignorance, a man reasonably trained in Quranic teachings won't even think of fighting with others.

A true Muslim could co-exist with anybody of any religion or non-religion, any culture or non-culture; peacefully in any society Western or Eastern under the sun.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

paarsurrey

Hi

If they are to burn in hell in the hereafter, as you say, then why should they be killed in this world. Let them enjoy their life peacefully as per the norms of a society they live in.

The non-believers don't believe in the hereafter, I think, so for that they should be least bothered. If they are convinced that there is a punishment in the hereafter then they would be logically wise enough to become believers out of their own free will, I think.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Blui

I am not arguing about what i want, but what Islam say's, that is, after all, the title of the thread

If a non-Muslim rejects Islam, it is permissable to kill them.

If a Muslim becomes a non-Muslim, it is permissable to kill them.

A non-muslim whom has never rejected Islam is simply considered a sinful creature, and will be tortured in hell forever.

Under Islamic rule, It is permissable to kill any non-muslim except if their Christians or Jews, in that case they must live as 2nd-rate citizens and pay a discriminatory tax with the main aim of humiliating them.

Btw, non-muslims should still be concerned if Muslims believe they burn in hell forever, people tend to try to emulate their Gods intentions.

paarsurrey

precedingfollowing

Hi

I don't agree with you, to verify its correctness kindly quote from the specific verse alongwith five preeding verses and five following verses to know the exact context of the Quran- the first and foremost source of guidance for Muslims, that no Muslim dare deny.
I am no scholar, so kindly proceed with one subject at a time. We are in no hurry and afterall it is a friendly discussion no formal debate in any case.

Thanks and regards

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

Minimalist

Sometimes "truth" can be disquieting. That seems to me the reason that most fundamentalists cling so tightly to the totally improbable.

premjan

I would say that the interpretations which involve killing non-Muslims just for being non-Muslims must be somewhat extreme interpretations. Especially in light of the fact that Muhammad said Allah is not affected by unbelievers, so don't worry about people who don't believe in Allah.

Blui

Non-Muslim rejects Islam, it is permissable to kill them
9:72 Allah promiseth to the believers, men and women, Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide - blessed dwellings in Gardens of Eden. And - greater (far)! - acceptance from Allah. That is the supreme triumph.
9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

9:74 They swear by Allah that they said nothing (wrong), yet they did say the word of disbelief, and did disbelieve after their Surrender (to Allah). And they purposed that which they could not attain, and they sought revenge only that Allah by His messenger should enrich them of His bounty. If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen....html#019.4294

Permissable to kill ex-Muslims
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#009.083.017

Narrated Ikrima:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#004.052.260

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#009.084.057

Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#009.084.058

Narrated Abu Musa:

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#009.089.271

Christians and Jews are to live as 2nd-rate citizens under Islamic rule
9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

A Stable Flux

Thanks for replying

You're word choice in a few areas was interesting. Mentioning that Muslims towards non-Muslims can live together peacefully and co-exist in general is promising, but i was wondering about other social dynamics. For example, I've read a passage in the the Qur'an stating that non-Muslims are not to be befriended. Well, the passage refers to Christians and Jews, but as you stated there may not be any recognisable terms in the Qur'an for Atheist or "believer in no God". Yet I find Christians and Jews to be comparable to atheists. Or even atheists would be treated worse than the statements in the Qur'an about Muslims relating to Christians and Jews.
This is a passage I found relating to friendship in three translations
(Source)

Also if you could clarify the laws about marriage. As said in my last post I understand Muslim women have to marry Muslim men but Muslim men can do as they please.

A passage from a secondary source(source)

I do hope you're right that relations between Muslims and non-Muslims (particularly atheists) are supposed to be peaceful by Islam. Although the above passages from and referring to the Qur'an give me uncertainty.

Sheshbazzar

Always a problem, no matter how peaceful Ahmadi our peaceful Muslim here is, it a certainty that there are a great many of other Muslims who understand these verses in a manner that permanently endangers non-Muslims, and also any "peaceful" Muslims like Ahmadi.
There are thousands of Muslims, whom If they were to hear Ahmadi's "peaceful" overtures here would believe it their religious duty to silence him, and having their way, he would be but another headless body before tomorrows sunrise.

I personally have family members who are devout practicing Muslims, when we come together at family gatherings we always greet each other with hugs and kisses, and greatly enjoy each others company, with good and enlightening conversations, respectful in our inquiries regarding one another's beliefs, and and considerate and tolerant of others religious practices, and we have always parted still remaining good friends.
Ali, my relative by marriage, is a very good man, friendly and polite to all, a hard worker, and a now a solid American citizen. He is an immigrant from Tunisia, born and raised as a Muslim, and has so raised his children in America, and the entire family is a credit to the Muslim religion, and we are very pleased with, and proud of their unique contributions to the richness and the diversity of our family.
Yet we cannot help but to fear for their safety when they are among their fellow Muslims, because of some who think it is their commanded duty to kill any Muslim who would be "friends" with non-Muslims.
We are able to proudly boast of that friendship here in America. But Ali, and his children, when they travel in the Muslim world must be very discreet about revealing the fact of having any non-Muslim "friends" back home in the United States, because of the danger to them from their fellow "not-so-peaceful" Muslims.