TySixtus

I've been doing alot of reading lately on the origins of much of the early myths of Christianity, to include Confession, Hell, and Transubstantiation. While the third one is easy to dismiss as peasant supersition and misinterpretation, I was wondering if anyone knew of any sources (or had any theories themselves) as to the supposed beginnings of these myths. Hell wasn't really part of Chrisitianity until about 500 A.D., when it became official Church catechism. Confession? Got me stumped. And Transubstantiation (The Catholic-- and perhaps other denominations, I don't know off hand-- idea that the bread and wine of Eucharist are turned into the actual flesh and blood of 'ol JC) sounds just plain silly, not to mention a bit canniballistic. Anybody care to weigh in? Personal theories are fine, as long as they aren't completely off the wall. For example, the whole 'Levels of Hell' and 'Circles of Hell' weren't really part of Christianity until Dante wrote his "Inferno". The Papcy was so thrilled with the terror it inspired, they started teaching it. Obtusely, of course.

The reason I bring this up is because of this "Left Behind" garbage, which is becoming mainstream. See this link to see what I mean. Here, you have a literature written by a theological fiction author, becoming theological non-fiction. The writers of the site claim no influence from that detestable series of books, but, I'm throwing the bullshit flag. Too many similarities. (People suddenly disappearing, others being left to 'figure out' what happened. Gee... sounds like a plot to a bad made-for-TV movie. Oh wait! It is!)

Just trying to see how malleable Christianity is when they 'Find something they like'. I think this would make a good social experiment, to see how stuff becomes socially acceptable within a defined system, that supposedly is 'unchanging'. Any and all responses-- including the ones telling me I'll be sorry when I'm to deal with Lucifer and the Anti-Christ on my own-- are welcome and appreciated.

Mary.

For the details on the origins of confession (& penance), see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

For Hell, see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

And for Transubstantiation, see: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3

Hope this helps.

Mary.

Honestlyseeking

I have to disagree with that comment depending on the intention of the word "really". One very detailed christian source writing being The Revelation to Peter

I remember reading a lot about this apocryphal early christian writing a few years ago. While it was not universally accepted it was commonly used in early christian churches. The story has a vivid account of Hell complete with women who had abortions being flammed from their babies eyes and homosexuals being forced to jump repeatedly off a high cliff. If thats not enough, I remember that straight men who had illicit sex were hung from their thighs by hooks.

Peter (James and John too??) was shown Satan himself who appears as a ~600 ft. high monster.

Here is a quick synopsis I found from a web search.

"The Revelation To Peter

c. 100-125 C.E.

The Apocalypse of Peter is the earliest Christian reference to the afterlife, describing in vivid detail the paradise of Heaven and the torments of Hell. The work is quite early, for it was referenced by Clement and likely used by the author of the Apocalypse of Paul; It may even predate the canonical Apocalypse (Revelation) of John. The book was included in the Muratorian Canon (c.200 C.E.) as well as the Codex Claramontanus. It is difficult to speculate why it fell out of favor in the orthodox church, except perhaps that it was often associated with the heretical Gospel of Peter.

The work survives in an extant Ethiopic text as well as a fragmentary Greek text discovered at Akhmîm with the Gospel of Peter. The two versions have striking dissimilarities, and it would appear that, although the work was originally composed in Greek, the Akhmîm text represents a later development. The work borrows heavily from Jewish apocalyptic tradition (1 Enoch), and the account of the transfiguration parallels the description in 2 Peter. "

Atticus_Finch

I would be interested to know upon what basis you assert that hell wasn't part of Christian doctrine until the 6th Century. It certainly is all over the NT.

See here.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, James and 2 Peter all refer to hell. Peter Kirby, not prone to early dating, puts all of these books in the 1st or at the latest 2d Century. See here.

Regards

Finch

TySixtus

The word "Hell" means 'Covered Place' or 'Hole' in Old English. How do the gospel writers know a word in Old English? "Translation!" you say? Agreed. But from what? "Sheol" (The Grave) was a Jewish belief for many years, believed to be borrowed from even older middle eastern Theology. I am referring to the concept we have of hell nowadays. When did that become the teaching? I.E How do we know Hell is filled with fire? Where in the bible does "Satan rule in Hell?" 'When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison' REV 20:7 (1) His prison? What about Hell? Can anyone find a reference (not an inference) of Satan ruling in Hell?(2)


Every single one of those authors wrote their stuff in Greek. 'Hades' would be the correct translation, but it never ends up that way. Why? Also, I'd like to note that John, in writing Revelation, does not mention Hell ONCE. (3) You'd think he'd mention it, especially since he refers to Satan. He does mention Hades four times in Revelation, but every time, Hades is referred to as a 'He', not a place.(4)

"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." REV 20:14

In fact it seems that Hades and 'the lake of fire' are two different things, one being a place, the other a being of some sort. Can anyone clarify?

The Revelation to Peter is non- Canonical. The Church doesn't recognize it as holy scripture, ergo it's role in doctrine would be severly limited, if ever used at all.

Ty

References:
For expediency, I used this online Bible, complete with a search feature. The following were the terms used. I used the NIV, and search criteria 'Matches all Words'

http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible

(1) Keyword search on 'Satan'
(2) Keyword seach on 'Satan' AND 'Hell' yielded no results.
(3) Keyword search on 'Hell'
(4) Keyword search on 'Hades'

capnkirk

Before the Babylonian Exile, the concept of an afterlife (particularly one where good was rewarded and sin was punished) did not exist in Judaism. Beginning with the Persian King Cyrus' conquest of Babylon and the introduction of Zoroastrianism, Jews were first exposed to these concepts. At a time when Hebrew confidence in their covenant with YHWH (and its attendant expectation of justice in this world) was at a low ebb, Zoroastrianism presented a cosmology where those that escaped (or were deprived of) justice in this world would receive justice in the next, the idea caught on among the common people. In the next 200 years before the Greek conquest, this idea among others became widespread among Jews. It was especially prevalent among Diaspora Jews of the first century CE, and was readily absorbed into Xtianity at that time.

Ironically, this was the only one of the three Catholic doctrines you asked about that DID predate the 5th century. Both the other two were the result of RCC theologists' formulation of catechal indoctrination after the RCC acquired the mantle of the official church of the Roman Empire, though I don't have the specific details.

__________________
Enterprise...OUT.

Kosh

To be fair, I think it's the other way around. The concepts in the left behind BS are not new. I remember seeing a moving about "the rapture" back in the 70s. Wife wakes up, husband is missing, razor still running in the sink where it fell when he was "taken". Those authors just wrote a bunch of fiction around the crap that they've been worrying about for a long time.

And let's not forget my favorite Xian doomsday book "88 reasons for '88".

The rapture is 16 years late now...

Paradox

You could probably trace this to this Scripture from the NT:
John 20:22-23 "And with that he (Jesus) breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Spirit, If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Other than a weak attempt to take the Bible absolutely literally I haven't a clue about this one.

As for hell. A lot of it has already been covered by others here but I'd been taught as a Christian that hell, as detailed in the Bible, was in 3 sections.
1) Torments - as described by Jesus' parable about the rich man and Lazarus. This was a place of extreme heat and darkness where a person was still sentient and could somehow witness events in the world!

2) The Lake of Fire which hasn't been created yet, but was intended to be for "the devil and his angels"

3) Tartarus - the place described in one of Peter's letters (and also Jude) which was a separate area for "spirits that had disobeyed in the days of Noah" and held in chains. Obviously this one isn't mentioned much as it a) highlights the ridiculous story of angels procreating with humans to spawn giants and b) "Tartarus" is a place well known in pre-Christian mythology.

Sheol was actually a general term for the place where all departed souls would reside (this was then subdivided into different areas such as Abraham's bosom/Paradise, torments, etc etc)

judge

Hi there.
a couple of ideas spring to mind re hell.
Firstly the idea of an unpleasant place after death is a BCE idea, as otherw have mentioned. As far as I am aware there was no agreement amongst early church fathers on the fate of the dead. Most did not believe in hell as fundies do today.

Secondly the aramaic version of Luke gives some interesting insight IMO.

In luke chapter 12:5

Jesus warns of judgement in ghenna. Ghenna was the valley outside Jerusalem. Ghenna is the aramaic word for this place. The aramaic version of Isaiah 66 mentions ghenna where the worm does not die.

It seems probable that Jesus was referring to Isaiah 66 when he spoke of Ghenna in the gospels.
Now, this word ghenna in the aramaic of Luke is hades in the greek version of Luke.

In Luke chapter 16 the rich man is in sheol, but this different word appears as hades in the greek version of Luke.
It seems that people began to confuse sheol with ghenna. I could say alot more s if you ahve any questions let me know

Honestlyseeking

If I am not mistaken your point was to find the origins of the modern Christian conception of hell. There is no better reference around then The Revelation of Peter. Its influence on the church was strong. Just because it didn't make it into the final canon doesn't mean it didn't shape Christian theology.

This is one of those writings that "almost made it into the bible of today". The fact is that many churches in the second century, and possibly even the first century, made use of it and also it was quoted by early church fathers with some degree of reverance. The fact that it was listed in the Moritorian (sp.) canon is also important.


Here is a link that contains some of the text.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1003.htm

Note: After doing some more reading I realize that in my first post I attributed a few elements contained in the Gospel of Bartholomew to The Revelation of Peter.