Freethought & Rationalism Archive

WVIncagold · 02-26-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

. . . and here is a coin with the image of Caesar and the inscription.
Source: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: This specific image has been released into the public domain

So?

The Illiad and Odyssey mention actual historical places. Does that mean that they're historically accurate as well?

That's what you get for not taking 10 seconds to work the bugs out of your own posts, arnoldo.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

don't forget marvel comics uses new york city as its back drop but i dot think a teenager swings around town on a web in a red and blue Lycra either. :rolling:
Christians forget the middle east was a strange and mysterious land for most Europeans so its not surprising it was used as the backdrop of the bible stories.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-26-2008, 09:12 AM

...Wow!

I come back from a week's vacation and STILL no progress!

Sugarhitman is still bluffing about "fulfilled prophecy" despite STILL being unable to find any such "prophecy" anywhere.

And Arnoldo is still off in fairyland, now pushing the "existence of Israel" as far back as he can (well beyond the Biblical timeframe for the existence of the Earth itself) while continuing to ignore the inconvenient fact that Israel DID NOT EXIST for 2000 years (contrary to prophecy). Furthermore, the Kingdom of Israel STILL does not exist (modern Israel is nothing like the ancient version): this is from the same guy who tried to claim that Tyre was "destroyed" when its king was exiled!

WVIncagold · 02-26-2008, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

On the contrary, you have never reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a temple would be rebuilt in Mecca by Muslims, and Muslims rebuilt a temple in Mecca, would you call that a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy?

<edit>

Is it your position that God is not able to provide additional evidence that would convince more people to believe that he can predict the future?

Man, you are obsessed with God predicting the future (the indisputable evidence of the existence of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the State of Israel and Christians). The fact that the nation of Israel has existed over 10,000 years (in the land of ISRAEL not Palestine) with definite archaelogical evidence (with a historical diaspora of 2,000 years) gives the Israelis/Jews absolute right to exist in their homeland. In fact, the Jews/Israelies will forever dwell in their homeland despite the raging of the heathen nations.

and a Muslim masque sitting on the temple mount points that the one true religion of Abraham is to Allah.

arnoldo · 02-26-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

I feel as if I'm always bursting your bubble, Arnoldo, but the Merneptah Stele does not actually say "Israel." In fact, this discussion indicates how minimal (if you'll forgive the pun) the evidence for it truly is. The stele was discovered by Flinders Petrie and....

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/a...ogy-bible.html

The lure of 19th century scholars to equate everything to their precious bible is well attested but Petrie seems to have jumped to a conclusion and everyone else stood up and saluted because it was what they wanted to hear. In fact, the name "Israel" turns up again on the Mesha stele, almost 4 centuries later, and there is no mention of it in between.

Perhaps "Isirir" does not mean "Israel" at all?

It's useful to know that the difference between /l/ and /r/ was not clear in Egyptian, so given the constraints of Egyptian phonology, it's a rather good transcription of Israel. It also by its geographical context, the other names in the list, fits well in a Palestinian context, pointing to the Israel connection. You should also consider that the exodus is limited by the mention of Raamses in Exodus 1:11, a town named after Ramses II. The Merneptah Stele places a tribal group in Palestine in the reign of Merneptah (and probably his deeds were really a repackaging of deeds under Ramses II, see Donald Redford, "Egypt, Canaan and Israel (or via: amazon.co.uk)"), ie when the exodus was supposed to have been happening. The conflict between two unrelated sources tends to support the reality of the common material, ie Israel

spin

Excellent book by Don Redford, here is a description of his book from the amazon website you provided.

Book Description

Quote:

Covering the time span from the Paleolithic period to the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C., the eminent Egyptologist Donald Redford explores three thousand years of uninterrupted contact between Egypt and Western Asia across the Sinai land-bridge. In the vivid and lucid style that we expect from the author of the popular Akhenaten, Redford presents a sweeping narrative of the love-hate relationship between the peoples of ancient Israel/Palestine and Egypt.

Clearly, Israel has a long history stretching back thousands of years which gives it the absolute right to exist in it's present form as the State of Israel despite the delusional ravings of the historical revisionists.

Johnny Skeptic · 02-26-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Man, you are obsessed with God predicting the future (the indisputable evidence of the existence of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob is the State of Israel and Christians). The fact that the nation of Israel has existed over 10,000 years (in the land of ISRAEL not Palestine) with definite archaelogical evidence (with a historical diaspora of 2,000 years) gives the Israelis/Jews absolute right to exist in their homeland. In fact, the Jews/Israelies will forever dwell in their homeland despite the raging of the heathen nations.

However, this thread is about Israel being proof of God's existence, not about whether or not Jews have a right to live in Palestine. You have never reasonably proven that the Partition of Palestine was not a self-fulfilled prophecy. If the Koran said that a temple would be rebuilt in Mecca by Muslims, and Muslims rebuilt a temple in Mecca, would you call that a legitimate fulfillment of prophecy?

If God did not make a land promise to Abraham and his descendants, and Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, since all that it takes in order to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true, that explains why Palestine was partitioned in 1948.

Sheshonq · 02-26-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

1. Israel restored (you cannot use the argument that because all Jews do not live in Israel, that this is not a restoration.

Of course you can use that argument. It's hardly a restoration if the Jews themselves aren't living there.

Quote:

2. Dispute over land and Jerusalem

So ? Again: always existed.

Quote:

3. Peace movement for peace in the mid east

Which has always existed since there has always been war in the mideast.

Quote:

4. Hostilty of a united nations

Wrong. Not hostile at all. In a most undemocratic manipulation of power through its membership as one of the five Permanent Members of the Security Council, the US protects Israel from any real repercussions of its apartheid policies and land theft.

Quote:

All foretold 100% accuracy!

In point of fact, two of your examples are the same as things have always been. Predicting that the future is going to look pretty much like the past is hardly a prophecy.

Your first and fourth examples above are just plain wrong.

Sheshonq · 02-26-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Clearly, Israel has a long history stretching back thousands of years which gives it the absolute right to exist in it's present form as the State of Israel despite the delusional ravings of the historical revisionists.

By that argument the presence of Palestinians and Canaanites - whose presence in Palestine predates even Israel, and whom the fundies even admit inhabited the land before the arrival of the Hebrews - gives them the GREATER right to the land in the modern state of Israel.

*sigh*
Another stupid-ass argument by arnoldo, shot down by its own contradictions and his carelessness. Sometimes this really is just *too* easy to believe.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling:

arnoldo · 02-26-2008, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Clearly, Israel has a long history stretching back thousands of years which gives it the absolute right to exist in it's present form as the State of Israel despite the delusional ravings of the historical revisionists.

By that argument the presence of Palestinians and Canaanites - whose presence in Palestine predates even Israel, and whom the fundies even admit inhabited the land before the arrival of the Hebrews - gives them the GREATER right to the land in the modern state of Israel.

*sigh*
Another stupid-ass argument by arnoldo, shot down by its own contradictions and his carelessness. Sometimes this really is just *too* easy to believe.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling:

Sadly for you, the Abrahamic covenant declares that the land of ISRAEL belongs to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, not Ishamel. Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel.

Eldarion Lathria · 02-26-2008, 01:13 PM

Israel was founded by Jewish Freemasons.

Eldarion Lathria

Sheshonq · 02-26-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

By that argument the presence of Palestinians and Canaanites - whose presence in Palestine predates even Israel, and whom the fundies even admit inhabited the land before the arrival of the Hebrews - gives them the GREATER right to the land in the modern state of Israel.

*sigh*
Another stupid-ass argument by arnoldo, shot down by its own contradictions and his carelessness. Sometimes this really is just *too* easy to believe.
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::roll ing::rolling::rolling:

Sadly for you, the Abrahamic covenant declares that the land of ISRAEL belongs to the descendants of Abraham through Isaac, not Ishamel.

Ah, but your original claim was based upon who got to the land first.

Now that you see that particular claim actually works against you, we observe you suddenly shift the basis of your claim to the "abrahamic covenant."

But sadly for you....

(a) there is no independent proof of such a covenant;
(b) if A and B make a covenant that C is not a party to, then it's not binding on C anyhow; and finally
(c) the islamic covenant says otherwise

Quote:

Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel.

Except when it isn't.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-26-2008, 09:12 AM	#1022
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...Wow! I come back from a week's vacation and STILL no progress! Sugarhitman is still bluffing about "fulfilled prophecy" despite STILL being unable to find any such "prophecy" anywhere. And Arnoldo is still off in fairyland, now pushing the "existence of Israel" as far back as he can (well beyond the Biblical timeframe for the existence of the Earth itself) while continuing to ignore the inconvenient fact that Israel DID NOT EXIST for 2000 years (contrary to prophecy). Furthermore, the Kingdom of Israel STILL does not exist (modern Israel is nothing like the ancient version): this is from the same guy who tried to claim that Tyre was "destroyed" when its king was exiled!

02-26-2008, 01:13 PM	#1029
Eldarion Lathria Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlantis Posts: 2,449	Israel was founded by Jewish Freemasons. Eldarion Lathria

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.