Freethought & Rationalism Archive

apatura_iris · 08-02-2007, 02:06 PM

The Egyptian connection to Judaism is also glaringly obvious the word "Amen." Amen-Ra being the Egyptian sun god.

jeffevnz · 08-02-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Rightmire

Where does this question originate? I first read of the theory years ago in Worlds in Collision or When Worlds Collide by Velikovsky (one is science fiction and one is Velikovsky--maybe not much difference from what some people say, although he had some interesting ideas that make a goodly amount of sense). People seem to think that his reading of Egyptian history is pretty badly flawed. This is the first time I've seen any mention of this in years. But I didn't vote, because I think it's probably not really a valid question.

Wow. I tried to lay out my motivation for the question. Surely you have reasons for disagreeing....? I know the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Just curious what you think.

Minimalist · 08-02-2007, 06:27 PM

Actually, Jeff, you do not have to establish a 'burden of proof' just to ask a question. You just ask it....which is what you did.

Magdlyn · 08-03-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apatura_iris

The Egyptian connection to Judaism is also glaringly obvious the word "Amen." Amen-Ra being the Egyptian sun god.

I hope you're kidding.:Cheeky:

Amen-Moses · 08-03-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apatura_iris

The Egyptian connection to Judaism is also glaringly obvious the word "Amen." Amen-Ra being the Egyptian sun god.

Actually Amen (Amun, Amon & Ammon) was a god in his own right - the Egyption creator god. Ra was a separate god and the two were combined at some point.

More importantly Moses is Egyptian for "Son-of" as in Ra-Moses or Tut-Moses and was typically part of every Pharoah's official name. The other common word is Ankh (as in Tut-Ankh-Amen) which means Life ("Life-blood-of" being a similar idea to "Son-of").

What we would dearly like to know is what the rest of Moses name was then we could figure out which Pharoah he was the son (or adopted son) of.

Amen-Moses (or son-of-the-creator-god if you hadn't already figured it out

)

jeffevnz · 08-03-2007, 09:17 PM

Not to be rude, but I do want to distance myself a little here. I don't know about some of these suggested connections between "amen" and "amun-ra", or between akhenaten and moses. I think the similarity of the stories on the unusual points I listed are what's compelling.

Chuck Rightmire · 08-03-2007, 10:52 PM

Jeff, didn't mean to sound so harsh. I thought at the time (and still do) that Velikovsky had some good ideas having to do with the evolution of history as it passes down through an oral tradition. It is something that would make sense with the occasional find in the Palestine area of ruins believed to be mentioned in the Bible. I think, though, that he was also one of the first (I may be wrong since I don't think Sagan and others took on this issue although some Egyptologists might disagree) to suggest that the Moses-led band may have been the Hyksos or at least might have been believed to have been the Hyksos who were considered so bad that it may have explained some reactions to the later Hebrews. But he also suggested that the reason there is no historical information on the Exodus in Egypt is that the Hebrews were leaving just as the Hyksos were invading and destroying records. At any rate, most of his Egyptian thoughts have been attacked rather viciously by Egyptologists, primarily because his theories meant realigning the Egyptian time line as laid down by the Greeks and later historians.

Dreadnought · 08-04-2007, 04:03 AM

It would be interesting to see the views of those who disagree with the idea. So far there only seems to be arguments for it being a possibility while the poll is roughly balanced. What are the naysayers reasons for naying?

Jayhawker Soule · 08-04-2007, 04:04 AM

FWIW ...

Quote:

The localization 'Land of the Shasu' in the mountainous districts of Se'ir east of the Araba [the valley south of the Dead Sea] has an interesting consequence for one name in the mentioned lists from Soleb and Amarah -- "Yhw (in) the land of the Shasu." For half a century it has been generally admitted that we have here the tetragrammaton, the name of the Israelite god, 'Yahweh'; and if this be the case, as it undoubtedly is, the passage constitutes a most precious indication of the whereabouts during the late fifteenth century B.C. of an enclave revering this god.

And while it would be wrong to jump to the conclusion that 'Israel' as known from the period of the Judges or the early monarchy was already in existence in Edom at this time, one cannot help but recall the numerous passages in later Biblical tradition that depict Yahweh 'coming froth from Se'ir' and originating in Edom. The only reasonably conclusion is that one major component in the later amalgam that constituted Israel, and the one with whom the worship of Yahweh originated, must be looked for among the Shasu of Edom already at the end of the fifteenth century B.C.

- Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Donald B. Redford

In sum, therefore, we may state that the memory of the Hyksos expulsion did indeed live on in the folklore of the Canaanite population of the southern Levant. The exact details were understandably blurred and subconsciously modified over time, for the purpose of 'face-saving.' It became not a conquest but a peaceful descent of a group with pastoral associations who rapidly arrived at a position of political control. Their departure came not as a result of an ignominious defeat, but either voluntarily or as a flight from a feud, or yet again as salvation from bondage.

- ibid (or via: amazon.co.uk)

The problem of course is that the question "Is the Exodus story at all related to the Hyksos?" does not really lend itself to a firm "no" - "at all related" covers a pretty wide swath of reasonable speculation, and one would expect that the central narrative of a people would have meaningful points of contact with that people's history.

jeffevnz · 08-04-2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist

The problem of course is that the question "Is the Exodus story at all related to the Hyksos?" does not really lend itself to a firm "no" - "at all related" covers a pretty wide swath of reasonable speculation, and one would expect that the central narrative of a people would have meaningful points of contact with that people's history.

In spite of that, about a third of respondents have given a pretty firm "no", which I find interesting. I asked the question the way I did on purpose, because I can't shake the feeling they're related, but specific models of how they're related get shot down quickly. I thought it might be good to take a step back and say "OK, how many people think there's some kind of connection here?"

View Poll Results: Is the Exodus story at all related to the Hyksos?
Probably (odds are 50% or better)	14	36.84%
There's a fair chance (odds are 10% to 50%)	5	13.16%
I really doubt it (odds are less than 10%)	14	36.84%
There's just no way to even guess how likely it is.	5	13.16%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

08-03-2007, 10:52 PM	#17
Chuck Rightmire Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Billings, Montana Posts: 451	Sorry I misled you Jeff, didn't mean to sound so harsh. I thought at the time (and still do) that Velikovsky had some good ideas having to do with the evolution of history as it passes down through an oral tradition. It is something that would make sense with the occasional find in the Palestine area of ruins believed to be mentioned in the Bible. I think, though, that he was also one of the first (I may be wrong since I don't think Sagan and others took on this issue although some Egyptologists might disagree) to suggest that the Moses-led band may have been the Hyksos or at least might have been believed to have been the Hyksos who were considered so bad that it may have explained some reactions to the later Hebrews. But he also suggested that the reason there is no historical information on the Exodus in Egypt is that the Hebrews were leaving just as the Hyksos were invading and destroying records. At any rate, most of his Egyptian thoughts have been attacked rather viciously by Egyptologists, primarily because his theories meant realigning the Egyptian time line as laid down by the Greeks and later historians.

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08-02-2007, 02:06 PM	#11
apatura_iris Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Staten Island Posts: 1,906	The Egyptian connection to Judaism is also glaringly obvious the word "Amen." Amen-Ra being the Egyptian sun god.

08-02-2007, 06:27 PM	#13
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Actually, Jeff, you do not have to establish a 'burden of proof' just to ask a question. You just ask it....which is what you did.

08-03-2007, 09:17 PM	#16
jeffevnz Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA, USA Posts: 3,370	Not to be rude, but I do want to distance myself a little here. I don't know about some of these suggested connections between "amen" and "amun-ra", or between akhenaten and moses. I think the similarity of the stories on the unusual points I listed are what's compelling.

08-04-2007, 04:03 AM	#18
Dreadnought Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 268	It would be interesting to see the views of those who disagree with the idea. So far there only seems to be arguments for it being a possibility while the poll is roughly balanced. What are the naysayers reasons for naying?

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