jeffevnz

I'm curious to see whether people think the Exodus story is at all related to the historical rule of Egypt by the Hyksos. I'm well aware that, as it is written, Exodus is extremely implausible. Even if you strip out the supernatural events, you have anachronisms, inconsistencies, and a complete lack of evidence on several important points where you would expect abundant evidence (such as millions of people camping out in the Sinai for years). I'm also well aware that the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites/whatever didn't even exist as a distinct people at the time of the Hyksos, so it would not make sense to identify the two groups.

What I'm wondering is whether people feel that the story could have some loose historical foundation involving the Hyksos, even if it had been distorted, exagerrated, redacted, and infused with myth over the centuries.

I compare the Biblical story to what we know of Egyptian history, and I notice some unusual points of agreement. They both have a foreign people, who speak a Semitic language, showing up in Egypt mid-second millenium BC. There's some evidence that the Hyksos started off as poor migrant laborers, which would resemble the story of Hebrews being slaves. Some of them somehow rise to a very powerful position in Egypt (Joseph became a viceroy; the Hyksos became Pharoahs). And in both stories, things eventually go sour between them and the Egyptians, and they go back to Palestine where they probably originated.

There's also the apparent similarity between "Moses" and "Ahmose" who drove the Hyksos out. Their roles in the two stories are different, but in both accounts, he's the guy responsible for the Semitic foreigners leaving.

I think there's a decent chance that the Hyksos remembered their experience in Egypt and the tradition became part of Canaanite culture that survived in the Hebrew Bible when it was composed centuries later. Numbers were exagerrated (as they are throughout the Bible), mythology added, and political agendas were redacted into it, but it's still rooted in an historical event.

Minimalist

I'd place the odds at better than 90%.

Ldyjinx

I've read a bit on this topic; one of the problems I have with the whole moses thing is that the only report of a few slaves leaving eqypt around the time period comes from an eqyptian fort manned by eqyptian soldiers who gave chase to.. 2..yes 2. not 2 million nor 200,000 jews. Just two.
The Hyskos were overthrown and thrown out of Eqypt; via the same northern route through the 'Reed" sea, not red sea, that moses was alleged to have taken.

this was roughly the time moses was alleged to have caused plagues and taken the isrealites into the desert for 40 years to live on divinely given milk and manna, assuming the stuff wouldn't spoil in the sun..

The historical facts were subverted, IMO, into more twice told xtian tales which as usual use a grain of truth to substantiate rumor.

jeffevnz

Whoah, we're evenly split so far. Not what I was expecting. The poll wasn't too comprehensive, so I don't know whether these responses are coming from nontheists, or maybe disproportionately from our handful of resident theists, or what. Can some of you post and let me know your religious PoV?

And, Minimalist, what's your reasoning for better than 90%? Anything beyond what I've said?

Minimalist

The Hyksos were apparently the only recognizable Canaanite group to ever set up shop in Egypt. Assuming they showed up during the Second Intermediate Period (when Egypt would have been unable to resist them) they apparently took political control of Lower Egypt but not Upper Egypt.

When they were evicted by Ahmose they were chased back into Canaan and for the duration of the 18th and most of the most 19th dynasties the Egyptians maintained control of the region. The Amarna correspondence gives us a unique window into the depth of that control: Canaanite vassal kings appealing for Egyptian assistance for one reason or another. This amounts to 4 centuries of Egyptian hegemony (1550 to 1150 BC).

Circa 1150 the Egyptians were the only Late Bronze Age empire to survive (barely) the onslaught of The Sea People. Even Egypt entered upon a long period of decline after their "victory." They lost control of Canaan and the Philistines (one of the Sea People groups) settled on the Canaanite coastal plain.

The current archaeological theory of Israelite origins holds that as a result of the destruction of the Canaanite coastal cities either a) Dever's view - Canaanite refugees fled the coast and set up farming communities to the east; or b) Finkelstein's view - that pastoral nomads living on the eastern edge of Canaan were forced to settle down to grow their own grain because they could no longer trade for it with the now-destroyed Canaanite farmers.

In any case, the basic population stock for the newly emerging "Israel" would have been Canaanite and it is not unrealistic to think that they might have retained racial memories of the time they ruled in Egypt.

wordy

I know nothing about such but as you present it it looks plausible. Those who read history could elaborate.

But there are Jew critics, I mean Jews that are critical to their own history that says Moses is myth.

Maybe he wasn't Hebrew at all. He could be what the Egypt history says. Unrelated to Jews but them wanting to have a good history borrowed from neighbor stories and maybe from Egypt too. Their views on gods looks a bit like Egypt gods?

jeffevnz

Interesting stuff, Minimalist. What do you think of the possible Hyksos ties of the 19th dynasty?

Chuck Rightmire

Where does this question originate? I first read of the theory years ago in Worlds in Collision or When Worlds Collide by Velikovsky (one is science fiction and one is Velikovsky--maybe not much difference from what some people say, although he had some interesting ideas that make a goodly amount of sense). People seem to think that his reading of Egyptian history is pretty badly flawed. This is the first time I've seen any mention of this in years. But I didn't vote, because I think it's probably not really a valid question.

Minimalist

Nil. Ramesses I established the 19th Dynasty c 1292 BC which is two and a half centuries after the 1550 end of the 15th (Hyksos) Dynasty. Still, Ramesses I is believed to have been from the Avaris area in the Delta. Of course, as a career soldier all that means is that he could have been stationed there.

apatura_iris

I think there is absolutely a connection. I also believe that Akhenaten and Moses might have been one and the same... not only did Akhenaten try to found a monotheistic religion, but he had a birth defect (possibly Marfan's Syndrome) and the bible mentions that Moses had a speech defect (when he calls himself "slow in speech" and it's decided that Aaron will do the talking). The whole twist about Moses being Jewish first, and Egyptian royalty second was probably added after the fact.