Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 02-04-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Unfortunately I don't know how to post Greek letters, which is the main part that I need more help with.

Typing Greek is easy. If you have Microsoft, go to your language settings (in XP it is found under Regional and Language Options; else it should be under Keyboard; both are in the Control Panel). Add Greek language and voila, you should have it down. To switch from English to Latin, you'll see a little box at the bottom: EN. Switch it to EL (short for Hellenic) while you have your internet browser up.

Bonam fortunam.

PS - There's also a transliteration scheme you can find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transli...Latin_alphabet

It's the fourth column that is important.

Malachi151 · 02-05-2007, 04:38 AM

How about this instead:

From: Peter, Jerusalem and Galatians 1:13-2:14

<copyright material removed>

There is a lot I have left out here.

Kilpatrick goes on to suggest explanations for these discrepancies other than interpolation, such as having written this section based on notes that were prepared by someone else. He notes that there is no textual evidence to base any case on, since we have no copies that deviate from our current version of this, but of course our oldest copies are hundreds of years later than the theoretical original. Kilpatrick seems to be intent on justifying the passage in spite of its many discrepancies.

Any comments on this? Particularly, what is the implication of his notes on 1:19 and what is the word in question there?

Toto · 02-05-2007, 11:25 AM

Malachi - the penalties under DMCA for copyright infringement are pretty serious. II does not have a budget for that.

Under fair use, you might quote a few paragraphs. But it would be better to do it offline.

Malachi151 · 02-05-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Malachi - the penalties under DMCA for copyright infringement are pretty serious. II does not have a budget for that.

Under fair use, you might quote a few paragraphs. But it would be better to do it offline.

I don't see what the issue is. This text is in image form, so there is no way to simply copy and paste the information and the content of the text is complicated. If this text were in character form and I had copied and pasted that same content there would be no issue.

I'm just trying to get someone who understands the Greek to help out on this and in order to do that they have to see the text.

Toto · 02-05-2007, 11:45 AM

The issue is that JSTOR charges money to view their material. You have posted more than is allowed under fair use.

Could you PM Chris and/or spin and ask for their help?

Niall Armstrong · 02-05-2007, 11:50 AM

Just a thought:

If Peter and Cephas were two different persons (and perhaps Simon a third?), why were they conflated in John 1:42? (This is the only Gospel reference, isn't it?) Is it only linguistic: a translation of "The Rock"? Or can there be a desire to simplify the early church history? (No conspiracy theory suggested, merely that in Cephas there is an important apostle not mentioned otherwise.... May a similar reasoning lie behind the many different Jameses in the Gospels?)

Malachi151 · 02-05-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The issue is that JSTOR charges money to view their material. You have posted more than is allowed under fair use.

Could you PM Chris and/or spin and ask for their help?

It seems to me that their usage statement is against commercial use and reproduction of their materials, not non-commercial use and reproduction. Perhaps this is considered a commercial website I suppose.

DCHindley · 02-05-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niall Armstrong

If Peter and Cephas were two different persons (and perhaps Simon a third?), why were they conflated in John 1:42? (This is the only Gospel reference, isn't it?) Is it only linguistic: a translation of "The Rock"? Or can there be a desire to simplify the early church history? (No conspiracy theory suggested, merely that in Cephas there is an important apostle not mentioned otherwise.... May a similar reasoning lie behind the many different Jameses in the Gospels?)

David Trobisch, an academic, has theorized that the NT was published in its present form around the middle of the 2nd century CE. The editor(s) had collected four groups of writings (the four gospels, the Pauline epistles, Acts with the general epistles, and finally the book of Revelation).

To link them together, they added "hooks" to imply that they are all a united product, each relating to the other. While Trobisch did not identify Jn 1:42 as such a link, I think it served as such.

Dave H

_The First Edition of the New Testament_ by David Trobisch (New York: Oxford University Press, 2000)
_Paul's Letter Collection: Tracing the Origins_ (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1994; reprint: Bolivar, Quiet Waters Publications, 2001)
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=91

spin · 02-05-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

It seems to me that their usage statement is against commercial use and reproduction of their materials, not non-commercial use and reproduction. Perhaps this is considered a commercial website I suppose.

As I understand it, if you had posted text you may have had some justification in placing the material here under fair usage. But as text images that JSTOR supplied I think you violate their copyright. (For those interested, see here. Note item 3.)

spin

Malachi151 · 02-05-2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

As I understand it, if you had posted text you may have had some justification in placing the material here under fair usage. But as text images that JSTOR supplied I think you violate their copyright. (For those interested, see here. Note item 3.)

spin

Yes, but note item 4:

Quote:

Permitted Uses. You may access, use, display, reproduce, and distribute the Content in JSTOR, provided you abide by the access and distribution restrictions in section 3, for the following Permitted Uses only: (a) research activities; (b) classroom instruction and related classroom activities; (c) student assignments; (d) public display as part of a noncommercial scholarly or educational presentation, such as in an educational, cultural, or scholarly seminar, class, lecture, conference, exhibit, or workshop, or a similar noncommercial professional activity, if such use conforms to the customary and usual practice in the field; and (e) use in research or a dissertation, including reproductions of the dissertation, provided such reproductions are only for personal use, library deposit, and/or use solely within the institution(s) with which you and/or your faculty readers are affiliated.

I can't possibly see how re-typing text makes a bit of difference. See also:

Quote:

Fair Use, Educational, and Other Exceptions to Copyright Laws. Nothing in this Agreement should be construed or interpreted to limit those uses of Content printed or exported from JSTOR that are permitted under the fair use, educational exceptions, or other provisions to the copyright laws or other intellectual property right laws in the United States or in other countries, but you make such uses at your own risk. Nothing in these Terms and Conditions of Use should be construed as JSTOR authorizing you to incorporate Content into electronic or print materials that are for purchase or are disseminated for commercial purposes (such as by a scholarly or commercial press), to make any commercial use of JSTOR or Content therein, or to make any use, display, performance, reproduction, or distribution of JSTOR or Content therein not expressly authorized in these Terms and Conditions of use. Copyright is not claimed by JSTOR as to any work of the United States government, or to any work that is in the public domain. You expressly acknowledge and agree that JSTOR shall not be liable in any way for all uses that you make of the Content that exceeds these Terms and Conditions of Use, whether or not you are relying on fair use and/or other provisions of the United States copyright or other intellectual property rights laws.

All I'm trying to do is get help understanding what I'm reading, I'm not trying to re-distribute the material or make a profit off of it.

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02-05-2007, 04:38 AM	#12
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	How about this instead: From: Peter, Jerusalem and Galatians 1:13-2:14 <copyright material removed> There is a lot I have left out here. Kilpatrick goes on to suggest explanations for these discrepancies other than interpolation, such as having written this section based on notes that were prepared by someone else. He notes that there is no textual evidence to base any case on, since we have no copies that deviate from our current version of this, but of course our oldest copies are hundreds of years later than the theoretical original. Kilpatrick seems to be intent on justifying the passage in spite of its many discrepancies. Any comments on this? Particularly, what is the implication of his notes on 1:19 and what is the word in question there?

02-05-2007, 11:25 AM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Malachi - the penalties under DMCA for copyright infringement are pretty serious. II does not have a budget for that. Under fair use, you might quote a few paragraphs. But it would be better to do it offline.

02-05-2007, 11:45 AM	#15
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The issue is that JSTOR charges money to view their material. You have posted more than is allowed under fair use. Could you PM Chris and/or spin and ask for their help?

02-05-2007, 11:50 AM	#16
Niall Armstrong Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Norway's Bible Belt Posts: 85	Just a thought: If Peter and Cephas were two different persons (and perhaps Simon a third?), why were they conflated in John 1:42? (This is the only Gospel reference, isn't it?) Is it only linguistic: a translation of "The Rock"? Or can there be a desire to simplify the early church history? (No conspiracy theory suggested, merely that in Cephas there is an important apostle not mentioned otherwise.... May a similar reasoning lie behind the many different Jameses in the Gospels?)

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