Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 07-09-2006, 03:54 PM

I am aware of this project: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~drijvers/ammianus/
but am not aware of its completion date.

Some questions:

1) Which are "the better" English translations (out of copyright)?
2) How many pages approximately of scanning is involved.
3) I can mark up the output and web-host it, can anyone scan?

Best wishes towards our understanding of the
authors of antiquity ....

Pete Brown
http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

countjulian · 07-13-2006, 07:58 PM

I'm actually attempting to transcribe the Res Gestae of Ammianus myself. I was aware of this site, it's got some good essays. I hope they don't beat me to the finish

. I have the Loeb edition, translated by John C. Rolfe. It's out of copyright and pretty good (my Latin's not too good but the entire Latin text apparatus is presented). I'm transcribing it on the adivce of Bill Thayer http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/home.html

Unfortunately I'm a rather good procrastinator (IIDB doesn't help) and I'm only about halfway through Liber XIV (I have only the first edition, I'll get the rest after I am done). Not counting the Latin pages, there is a total of about 272 English pages (545 total pages). He has a lot of ethnographic digressions in the spirit of Herodotus and the other Greek historians, and considering the current situations in the Middle East I find his sections on the "(pre-Islamic) Saracens" to be rather amusing (if not Politically Incorrect

)

Quote:

4. The Inroads of the Saracens; Their Customs

1. The Saracens, however, whom we never found desirable either as friends or as enemies, ranging up and down the country, in a brief space of time laid waste whatever they could find, like rapacious kites which, whenever they caught site of any prey from on high, seize it with swift swoop, and directly [after] they have seized it make off.

2. Although I recall having told of their customs in my history of Marcus [lost], and several times after that, yet I will now briefly relate a few more particulars about them.

3. Among those tribes whose original abode extends from the Assyrians to the cataracts of the Nile and the frontiers of the Blemmyae all alike are warriors of equal rank, half-nude, clad in dyed cloaks as far as the loins, ranging widely with the help of swift horses and slender camels in times of peace or disorder. No man ever grasps a plough-handle or cultivates a tree, none seeks a living by tilling the soil, but they rove continually over wide and extensive tracts without a home, without fixed abodes or laws; they cannot long endure the same sky, nor does the sun of a single district ever content them.

4. Their life is always on the move, and they have mercenary wives, hired under a temporary contract. But in order that there may be some semblance of matrimony, the future wife, by way of a dower, offers her husband a spear and a tent, with the right to leave him after a stipulated time, if she so elect: and it is unbelievable with what ardour both sexes give themselves over to passion

5. Moreover, they wander so widely as long as they live, that woman marries in one place, gives birth in another, and rears her children far away, without being allowed any opportunity for rest.

6. They all feed upon game and an abundance of milk, which is their main sustenance, on a variety of plants, as well as on such birds as they are able to take by fowling; and I have seen many of them who are wholly unacquainted with grain or wine.

7. So much for this dangerous tribe. Let us now return to our original theme.

It should be noted that the use of "mercenary wives" is still alive if and well in the Islamic world, especially Iran. Temporary marriages are called Nikah Mut'ah, and are done according to the Quran

Quote:

And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

Most Sunnis don't like it and say it's wrong, but in Shi'a areas it is still often practiced- especially amongst the clergy. It also goes on in some more backwater Sunni areas.

Roger Pearse · 07-14-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I'm actually attempting to transcribe the Res Gestae of Ammianus myself. I was aware of this site, it's got some good essays. I hope they don't beat me to the finish

. I have the Loeb edition, translated by John C. Rolfe. It's out of copyright and pretty good (my Latin's not too good but the entire Latin text apparatus is presented). I'm transcribing it on the adivce of Bill Thayer http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/home.html

Unfortunately I'm a rather good procrastinator (IIDB doesn't help) and I'm only about halfway through Liber XIV (I have only the first edition, I'll get the rest after I am done). Not counting the Latin pages, there is a total of about 272 English pages (545 total pages).

I hope that you will persist. I don't have Bill's patience, so I use a scanner myself (and the English text of Loeb's scans quite well).

Which site has part online already?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

countjulian · 07-14-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Which site has part online already?

No site does. I thought that the site mountainman posted was trying to put Ammianus up, but in reality it just has some interesting essays and introductions to/about his work. I will continue, and I thank you for the encouragement. I think I'll get the first book done and then put it up. BTW, where is a good place to put up lots of text, for free? I don't have a website.

Roger Pearse · 07-14-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

No site does. I thought that the site mountainman posted was trying to put Ammianus up, but in reality it just has some interesting essays and introductions to/about his work. I will continue, and I thank you for the encouragement. I think I'll get the first book done and then put it up. BTW, where is a good place to put up lots of text, for free? I don't have a website.

Are you doing the whole work, or just the English? If the latter, and it is really public domain, and you want to contribute it to the Additional Fathers, then email it to me and I will host it. But...

Rolfe's version came out in 1935, as far as I can see. This means that it is only out of copyright if the copyright was not renewed.

* Table of copyrights.
* Notes on copyrights.

So you would need to check the records (see the second link). Loeb did not usually renew their stuff, tho. Rolfe himself died in 1943.

However there is the Bohn translation by C. D. Yonge, from 1862. I have a photocopy of this, but never scanned it.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

countjulian · 07-14-2006, 01:14 PM

I checked out the link, but I can't seem to find where I need to look. Any help, Roger? Thanks in advance.

Post Scriptum
Sorry, I'm kind of busy, I've already wasted enough time here today...

Roger Pearse · 07-14-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I checked out the link, but I can't seem to find where I need to look.

Go to this page and scroll down to the links to images of the pages listing books renewed. You'll have to work out from the text which years to look at. This will take a bit of time, so don't try to do it in a hurry, hey?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mountainman · 07-15-2006, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countjulian

I'm actually attempting to transcribe the Res Gestae of Ammianus myself. I was aware of this site, it's got some good essays. I hope they don't beat me to the finish

. I have the Loeb edition, translated by John C. Rolfe. It's out of copyright and pretty good (my Latin's not too good but the entire Latin text apparatus is presented). I'm transcribing it on the adivce of Bill Thayer http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/home.html

Unfortunately I'm a rather good procrastinator (IIDB doesn't help) and I'm only about halfway through Liber XIV (I have only the first edition, I'll get the rest after I am done). Not counting the Latin pages, there is a total of about 272 English pages (545 total pages).

Thanks for that information! 272 pages isnot all that much.
(Well it is better than 273).

Quote:

He has a lot of ethnographic digressions in the spirit of Herodotus and the other Greek historians, and considering the current situations in the Middle East I find his sections on the "(pre-Islamic) Saracens" to be rather amusing (if not Politically Incorrect

)

IMO the face of the nations change with the Ages,
and his history is of interest for many reasons.

I noticed that Roger has volunteered webspace, and I will also
volunteer to host a mirror of your work on this text, if this is
agreeable.

Additionally, perhaps the task can be broken down into a series
of smaller tasks, and shared about those interested in the final
result. I agree with Roger that scanning is probably the optimum
initial step, followed by a process of QA, and HTML markup.

If however, you are ploughing through the text and re-typing it
then I can also understand this approach. Although it is very
very very very slow, you personally will have digested the text
at its detail level in a substantial fashion by the end of the project.

I have done this with some texts myself, prefering to contemplate
the text while reading and retyping. However, this will take alot
of time. I have not yet tried to source any of the English translations
available (and out of copyright).

Roger, what would it cost to have that photocopy of C. D. Yonge
scanned by a beaurea service over there? I would be willing to
contribute to this worthwhile charity.

I'd like to read this text on the net this year if possible.
We are talking about furtherance of the public domain.

Over to you.

Pete Brown
www.mountainman.com.au
MOUNTAIN MAN GRAPHICS
Australia

Publications of Peace
and Of Great Souls

mountainman · 07-16-2006, 09:30 PM

Are the first 13 books mentioned by anyone at all?

AFAIK the history presented by the literature of Ammianus Marcellinus
commences from Book 14 (covering the years from 353 CE), the first
13 books (covering the period from 96 CE [c.f. Tacitus] to 253 CE) are
presumed to be lost.

Does anyone know whether any of these lost 13 books were cited
by any subsequent of contemporary authors in antiquity, and if so,
which commentator.

Alternatively, are there any notes as to why the earlier books of the
series were lost, etc.

I have searched for this information but am unable to locate any
references to citations from, or acknowledgement of,
these lost earlier thirteen books. Anyone?

Pete Brown

countjulian · 07-19-2006, 08:43 AM

Hmmmmm, the board crash seems to have wiped out what I posted. No matter; in answer to your question, mountain man, Ammianus mentions tham frequently himself (as in the locus I posted above). Look to the Suda. Here's what the introduction has to say

Quote:

His History

Ammianus sets himself the vast project of succeeding Tacitus as an historian, and might have entitled his work Res Gestae a fine Corneli Taciti ; but the title which has come down to us is simply Res Gestae(his note cites "Priscian, Gr. Lat. ii. 487, 1, Keil"). It covered the period between the ascension of Nerva in A.D. 96 to the death of Valens in 378, and was divided into thirty-one books, of which the first thirteen are lost. Since the surviving eighteen books deal with a period of twenty-five years, from 353, the seventeenth year of the reign of Constantius II, to the battle of Adrianople, the lost books must have given a brief account of the two hundred and fifty-seven years to which they were devoted. In 391 Libanius implies(his note cites his Epistle 983, including Greek text I will not include: "I hear Rome herself has crowned your work, and that her verdict is, that you have surpassed some and equaled others") that Ammianus published, and probably recited parts of his work at Rome with great success. Seeck thinks that the part which was published in 390 or 391 ended with the twenty-fifth book ; that this was his original plan, and that he was encouraged to go farther by the favourable reception given to a public recitation ; that he intended to continue beyond the death of Valens is indicated by his promise to tell of the fate that overtook Maximinus and Simplicius(note cites Ammianus:"xxviii.1,57"), but his failure to do so may possibly have been an oversight. That the work was published in installments seems to be indicated by the preferatory remarks at the beginning of Books xv. and xxvi...

Manuscript Traditions

There are twelve manuscripts that contain all the surviving books of Ammianus Marcellinus. Two break off at the end of Book xxxvi. (PR). and one ends abruptly at xxx. 3, 13 (D). There are besides six detached sheets which once formed part of the codex belonging to the abbey of Hersfeld ; these are now in Marburg, and the manuscript to which they belonged is designated as M. Of the other fifteen manuscripts seven are in Rome(VDYEURP), one each in Florence (F), Modena (Q), Cesena, (K) and Venice (W), and the remaining four [are] in Paris (CHTN). V and M are of the ninth century, the rest of the fifteenth. A full desription of all these and their relation to one another is given by Clark(The Text Tradition of Ammianus Marcellinus, New Haven, 1904), who has convincingly shown that of the existing manuscripts only V has independent value. To this are added the readings of M, so far as the manuscript has been preserved(Rolfe's note:"Fragments of Books xxiii and xxviii and xxx ; see H. Nissen Frag. Marb., Berlin, 1876), and so far as the reading of its lost part can be restored from the edition of Gelenius, who professed to follow M, but made extensive emendations of his own.
Clark reconstructs the history of the text as follows. A capital manuscript, presumably of the sixth century, was copied, probably in Germany by a writer using a scriptura Scottica. In the early Carolignian period a copy was made from the insular manuscript, which is the parent of V (Fuldensis), and of the one which the Hersfeld fragments formed a part (M). No copy of Hersfeldensis exists, but many of its readings are found in the edition of Gelenius. Every other manuscript is copied from the Fuldensis (V), four directly (FDN and E) and the other nine through F, including Gardthausen's codices multi (P and R), which are copies of V at two removals at least.

07-09-2006, 03:54 PM	#1
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Ammianus Marcellinus (Res Gestae, English translation) I am aware of this project: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~drijvers/ammianus/ but am not aware of its completion date. Some questions: 1) Which are "the better" English translations (out of copyright)? 2) How many pages approximately of scanning is involved. 3) I can mark up the output and web-host it, can anyone scan? Best wishes towards our understanding of the authors of antiquity .... Pete Brown http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/article_029.htm

07-16-2006, 09:30 PM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	question about the books 1 to 13 (presumed lost) Are the first 13 books mentioned by anyone at all? AFAIK the history presented by the literature of Ammianus Marcellinus commences from Book 14 (covering the years from 353 CE), the first 13 books (covering the period from 96 CE [c.f. Tacitus] to 253 CE) are presumed to be lost. Does anyone know whether any of these lost 13 books were cited by any subsequent of contemporary authors in antiquity, and if so, which commentator. Alternatively, are there any notes as to why the earlier books of the series were lost, etc. I have searched for this information but am unable to locate any references to citations from, or acknowledgement of, these lost earlier thirteen books. Anyone? Pete Brown

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07-14-2006, 01:14 PM	#6
countjulian Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the torture chambers of Pinochet's Chile Posts: 2,112	I checked out the link, but I can't seem to find where I need to look. Any help, Roger? Thanks in advance. Post Scriptum Sorry, I'm kind of busy, I've already wasted enough time here today...

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