Haran

Mind telling where those are from, where they are located, and how long after Jesus and the legalism of his time that those were created?

Anat

BTW there are other words for fish in Semitic languages. There's Nun (like Joshua's father) and there's the Aramaic word, not sure about its pronounciation, but its root is smk. The latter may have been the one Clive's source had in mind when claiming similarity to Mashiah. Not even the same consonants (kaf vs het) and different order.

Ecrasez L'infame

TS Eliot called this short poem of Robert Graves's "real poetry, the real thing." Its meaning is that the symbolism of the fish has changed from the pagan lusty & playful phallis to, in Christianity, a creature "proverbial for his sexual indifference" which "the Mother Superior [only] permits... as a convent pet because he cannot possibly awake any lascivious thoughts in her charges"; and that some nuns, at least, privately regretted the change.

Circling the circlings of their fish,
Nuns walk in white and pray;
For he is as chaste as they
Who was dark-faced and hot in Silvia's day,
And in his pool drowns each unspoken wish.

Clivedurdle

Completely serious!

Xianity grew in a world of gods and goddesses and sniffing volcanic fumes, of myth. It is accepted that these ideas have influenced xianity, but within an idea that xianity is new, is different. When the similarities were pointed out, the response was that satan was copying the things of god. Now the apologist response seems to be fish is a geographical historical fact of palestine - denying they are and always have been mythological symbols - I had forgotten the male rude bits!

It co-evolved with the pagan world, is not separate from it but is an integral part of it.

If we start looking seriously at myth and symbol in this religion, it is fascinating how the alleged historicity dissapears like a morning mist with the warmth of the day!

Haran

Then I must say that I find the allegations "bonkers"...

Yes, it did. And if one reads the biblical texts, one realizes how offensive they found these other gods and goddesses. However, many seem to judge texts that they have never fully read or understood.

There has been no change in "response". First, you would have to prove to me that such a pagan symbol truly existed and meant what you say it means. So far you have not done such a thing. Second, you would have to explain why the fish symbol (common in antiquity for many different uses) could not have developed independantly, based on the obvious foundation of Jesus living and ministering around the Sea of Galilee, selecting fishermen as disciples, and telling them that they would be fishers of men. The evidence in this direction is too strong to believe any of the supposed pagan borrowing stupidity.

I have been looking seriously at myth and symbology of this religion likely far longer than you, and I have come to no such conclusions. In fact, my faith is strengthening day by day, especially since recently visiting Israel and seeing these places with my own eyes.

Clivedurdle

i have now seen this "first" "second" "prove" mantra in several threads by different posters. Is it a new apologist tactic, as what it does is diverts discussion of evidence onto strange logical grounds that I cannot see the basis of!

I actually see some very interesting political issues arising.

The Roman Empire was very eclectic in terms of its religions, but needed to develop central means of control. Why not slowly develop a new religion to unify everyone politically? Pope Gregory said this - a mountain is climbed a step at a time, you cannot wipe away all heresy immediately.

You start with the existing gods and myths and tweak them slightly, slowly evolving the idea.

Are we looking at four hundred plus years of social engineering? Are the gospels actually the classic myths in this new religions clothing?

Clivedurdle

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=169734

Go to the Jerusalem Post article. Why a picture of fish in a church? Why the religious number seven in the stories in the gospels about fish?

Haran, did you actually read the Biblical passages above about fish and water?

Have you ever read any Greek and Roman mythology? We are in mythical worlds here, like that of Aslan and Fodor, possibly with a political twist!

Clivedurdle

Why would Constantine set up the Council of Nicea? He was not that interested in xianity, but he was interested in politics, and a central religion with everyone singing off the same hymn sheet is a classic way of obtaining control. Maybe the social engineering was more than four hundred years, but the political reasons have got lost over the years!