Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 03-12-2007, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evoken

What would you reply with?

Reply that these passages are proof that the Bible is a well crafted deception. Put them on the defensive rather than being put into the position of trying to counter an endless barage of apologetic crap. Force them to admit they accept on faith alone that the Bible is true rather than a supernatural deception. Then attack the concept of faith pointing out that in any context outside of religion, faith is equated with stupidity, and force them to explain why they make a special exception for faith in the context of religion alone.

None of this is likely to accomplish anything, other than to buy you a few hours of entertainment.

Chili · 03-12-2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

ALL literature involves flawed characters. Without them, there would be NO DRAMA. In fact, imperfect people are the life's blood of literature.

What a ludicrous argument!

I really do not see beauty in drama or in flawed characters but maybe that is just me. Yes, I like a cheerful sinner.

Gamera · 03-13-2007, 12:55 AM

Since historiography takes the form of narrative, there is always a "story" in an historical text (as opposed to an annal or a chronicle), and stories always have some point to make, some organizing principle. The pastiche of stories that make up the Hebrew scriptures have all kinds of purpose, one of them being the faithlessness of Israeli. This neither supports the historicity of the text nor negates it. Every historical text has such narrative elements.

Thucydides has a little story to tell about Athens and the Greeks, and Tacitus has a story to tell about Agricola and whoever wrote Genesis has a story to tell about the Hebrews.

None of this makes it true or false.

Jack the Bodiless · 03-13-2007, 08:25 AM

The Hebrews were in a pretty unique situation: surrounded by more powerful neighbors who whupped their asses on a regular basis.

That easily explains the sadomasochistic overtones in their religion. The priests had to keep finding excuses for their tribal wargod to keep letting this sort of thing happen.

gstafleu · 03-13-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evoken

A christian in another board posted the following:

Quote:

Most people writing about themselves or their country want to be the good guys.

The OT does just that. The "good guys" are the monotheists, the bad guys are anyone who deviates from that. The monotheists are painting themselves in a good light and they paint the others in a bad light: when you are a good little monotheist things go well for you (and the country), otherwise things go badly. Going by your opponents reasoning, this shows the OT is not realistic.

Gerard Stafleu

RED DAVE · 03-13-2007, 09:32 AM

From butswana:

Quote:

Fuck you, snake. Eat that apple yourself!

Actually, it almost did go down like that.

Quote:

EVE: Fuck you, snake. Eat that apple yourself!

SNAKE: Eat it with your mama, beeyatch.

EVE: I don't have a mama, motherfucker. Your mama so fat, she can't slither through the Holland Tunnel.

SNAKE: Peace, baby. Let's share.

EVE: Cool, dog.

SNAKE: Ladies first.

RED DAVE

Malachi151 · 03-13-2007, 09:40 AM

Ask them to explain this from the Old Testament (and there are really dozens of passages like this), which was written by a Jew from Israel:

Quote:

Hosea 9:
1 Do not rejoice, O Israel!
Do not exult as other nations do;
for you have played the whore, departing from your God.
You have loved a prostitute’s pay
on all threshing-floors.
2 Threshing-floor and wine vat shall not feed them,
and the new wine shall fail them.
3 They shall not remain in the land of the Lord;
but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,
and in Assyria they shall eat unclean food.

4 They shall not pour drink-offerings of wine to the Lord,
and their sacrifices shall not please him.
Such sacrifices shall be like mourners’ bread;
all who eat of it shall be defiled;
for their bread shall be for their hunger only;
it shall not come to the house of the Lord.

5 What will you do on the day of appointed festival,
and on the day of the festival of the Lord?
6 For even if they escape destruction,
Egypt shall gather them,
Memphis shall bury them.
Nettles shall possess their precious things of silver;
thorns shall be in their tents.

7 The days of punishment have come,
the days of recompense have come;
Israel cries,
‘The prophet is a fool,
the man of the spirit is mad!’
Because of your great iniquity,
your hostility is great.
8 The prophet is a sentinel for my God over Ephraim,
yet a fowler’s snare is on all his ways,
and hostility in the house of his God.
9 They have deeply corrupted themselves
as in the days of Gibeah;
he will remember their iniquity,
he will punish their sins.

10 Like grapes in the wilderness,
I found Israel.
Like the first fruit on the fig tree,
in its first season,
I saw your ancestors.
But they came to Baal-peor,
and consecrated themselves to a thing of shame,
and became detestable like the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory shall fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception!
12 Even if they bring up children,
I will bereave them until no one is left.
Woe to them indeed
when I depart from them!
13 Once I saw Ephraim as a young palm planted in a lovely meadow,
but now Ephraim must lead out his children for slaughter.
14 Give them, O Lord—
what will you give?
Give them a miscarrying womb
and dry breasts.

15 Every evil of theirs began at Gilgal;
there I came to hate them.
Because of the wickedness of their deeds
I will drive them out of my house.
I will love them no more;
all their officials are rebels.

16 Ephraim is stricken,
their root is dried up,
they shall bear no fruit.
Even though they give birth,
I will kill the cherished offspring of their womb.
17 Because they have not listened to him,
my God will reject them;
they shall become wanderers among the nations.

And, of course, this passage was used by the writers of the Gospels, so you can see directly where this type of writing came from.

spamandham · 03-13-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

The Hebrews were in a pretty unique situation: surrounded by more powerful neighbors who whupped their asses on a regular basis.

It isn't even that complicated. Almost all the stories that show a poor light on someone are obvious attempts to say something to the effect of "see, the old ways sucked. I'm the real deal, listen to me"

...power grab after never ending power grab, conveniently all supported by the silent words of an invisible boogey man.

Roland · 03-13-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

I really do not see beauty in drama or in flawed characters but maybe that is just me. Yes, I like a cheerful sinner.

Perfect people make for boring stories.

Chili · 03-13-2007, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

Perfect people make for boring stories.

I know what you mean. Boring people too.

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03-13-2007, 12:55 AM	#13
Gamera Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Palm Springs, California Posts: 10,955	Since historiography takes the form of narrative, there is always a "story" in an historical text (as opposed to an annal or a chronicle), and stories always have some point to make, some organizing principle. The pastiche of stories that make up the Hebrew scriptures have all kinds of purpose, one of them being the faithlessness of Israeli. This neither supports the historicity of the text nor negates it. Every historical text has such narrative elements. Thucydides has a little story to tell about Athens and the Greeks, and Tacitus has a story to tell about Agricola and whoever wrote Genesis has a story to tell about the Hebrews. None of this makes it true or false.

03-13-2007, 08:25 AM	#14
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	The Hebrews were in a pretty unique situation: surrounded by more powerful neighbors who whupped their asses on a regular basis. That easily explains the sadomasochistic overtones in their religion. The priests had to keep finding excuses for their tribal wargod to keep letting this sort of thing happen.

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