Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jules? · 06-01-2008, 04:02 PM

Josephus believed Vespasian to be the messiah so how can Testimonium Flavianum be reconciled to this fact?

Moridin · 06-01-2008, 04:21 PM

Easy! It can't.

thentian · 06-01-2008, 04:37 PM

It works well with R Eislers reconstruction, which you can see here.

jules? · 06-01-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

It works well with R Eislers reconstruction, which you can see here.

when compared to Jo's other attacks on wannabe messiahs Eislers' reconstruction reads well

Quote:

Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man, who was the most monstrous of men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man has ever done.... He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight.... And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and was regarded by them as the Messiah.... And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called 'Messianists' after him is not extinct.

Quote:

CHAPTER 5.
CONCERNING THEUDAS AND THE SONS OF JUDAS THE GALILEAN; AS ALSO WHAT CALAMITY
FELL UPON THE JEWS ON THE DAY OF THE PASSOVER.
1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain
magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to
take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told
them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river,
and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.
However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt,
but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them
unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took
Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what
befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

Solitary Man · 06-01-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moridin

Easy! It can't.

Say something substantive!

thentian · 06-01-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

It works well with R Eislers reconstruction, which you can see here.

when compared to Jo's other attacks on wannabe messiahs Eislers' reconstruction reads well

Quote:

CHAPTER 5.
CONCERNING THEUDAS AND THE SONS OF JUDAS THE GALILEAN; AS ALSO WHAT CALAMITY
FELL UPON THE JEWS ON THE DAY OF THE PASSOVER.
1. NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain
magician, whose name was Theudas, (9) persuaded a great part of the people to
take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told
them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river,
and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words.
However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt,
but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them
unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took
Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what
befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

Yes. All we can really tell from TF is that Josephus probably wrote something derogatory about Jesus, if he wrote anything at all.

There is another passage where Jesus is mentioned in passing in connection with the trial of his brother James, but this passage, too, has been challenged.

Toto · 06-01-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

Josephus believed Vespasian to be the messiah so how can Testimonium Flavianum be reconciled to this fact?

To be fair, you only have to assume the partial interpolation solution - that "He was the Messiah" was added to the passage. The description in the rest of the passage bears no resemblance to the Jewish Messiah as understood by the Jews.

But once you admit that the passage has been tampered with, how do you know when to stop?

Solitary Man · 06-01-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

Josephus believed Vespasian to be the messiah so how can Testimonium Flavianum be reconciled to this fact?

To be fair, you only have to assume the partial interpolation solution - that "He was the Messiah" was added to the passage. The description in the rest of the passage bears no resemblance to the Jewish Messiah as understood by the Jews.

But once you admit that the passage has been tampered with, how do you know when to stop?

Probably by using the same methods used with Classical texts.

Toto · 06-01-2008, 07:28 PM

So what method would tell you that the passage is partially interpolated versus a complete forgery?

Solitary Man · 06-01-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So what method would tell you that the passage is partially interpolated versus a complete forgery?

External sources, for one. Some methods subjective, such as "do the reconstructions fit the language and style of the author?" "does the passage entirely stick out from the surrounding context?" "what do the manuscripts say?" etc.

06-01-2008, 04:02 PM	#1
jules? Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: mind the time rift, cardiff, wales Posts: 645	was Josephus confused or have a short memory? Josephus believed Vespasian to be the messiah so how can Testimonium Flavianum be reconciled to this fact?

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06-01-2008, 04:21 PM	#2
Moridin Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 102	Easy! It can't.

06-01-2008, 04:37 PM	#3
thentian Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 694	It works well with R Eislers reconstruction, which you can see here.

06-01-2008, 07:28 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So what method would tell you that the passage is partially interpolated versus a complete forgery?

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