beanpie

How would YOU interpret the word "in", and why?

"AS" vs "IN". A distinct difference...

Since sharing some of what I have been taught, regarding the
apearance of God, as a human, in the Bible, I have recv'd many e-
mails. Some attempt to argue that God is a spirit only. Some admit
that Genesis 18, refers to God as a man. While some do not actually
state that Gen. 18 refers to God as a man. They do state that God can
appear as a human. They base this belief on the supposed fact that
God appeared as a cloud or the most used example, God appeared to
Moses as a burning bush.

I nodded in agreement when I read or heard these things. But, I had
the feeling that something was not right. I awoke this morning, with
a strong urge to research this. So, I got out my copy, of the Bible.
Not suprisingly, my supicions were, indeed, correct. The Bible does
not say that God appeared as a cloud or as a burning bush. This is a
fallacy, we have been taught to believe.
The Bible actually says the following...9: And the LORD said to Moses, "Lo, I am coming to you in a thick
cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also
believe you for ever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the
LORD.
EXODUS 19 ( GOD APPEARS IN A THICK CLOUD, SO THE PEOPLE CAN HEAR HIM.
HOW IS HE COMMUNICATING WITH MOSES? WHY MUST THE PEOPLE BE NEAR, TO
HEAR GOD SPEAK WITH MOSES? DO SPIRITS HAVE THE ABILITY TO "SPEAK" AND
BE "HEARD", WITHOUT A BASE? THESE QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ANSWERED.)

2: And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out
of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and lo, the bush was burning,
yet it was not consumed.
EXODUS 3 ( It is interesting to note, the angel of the LORD, is said
to have appeared, in the flame. But this is not what I wish to
ultimately point out.)

Now, is a good time to define some of the key words, so we can have a
clear understanding, of what the Bible is actually saying, and not
saying...

beanpie

THE BIBLE-"AS" vs "IN"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the LORD said to Moses, "Lo, I am coming to you in a thick
cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also
believe you for ever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the
LORD.
EXODUS 19 ( GOD APPEARS IN A THICK CLOUD, SO THE PEOPLE CAN HEAR HIM.
HOW IS HE COMMUNICATING WITH MOSES? WHY MUST THE PEOPLE BE NEAR, TO
HEAR GOD SPEAK WITH MOSES? DO SPIRITS HAVE THE ABILITY TO "SPEAK" AND
BE "HEARD", WITHOUT A BASE? THESE QUESTIONS SHOULD BE ANSWERED.)

2: And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out
of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and lo, the bush was burning,
yet it was not consumed.
EXODUS 3 ( It is interesting to note, the angel of the LORD, is said
to have appeared, in the flame. But this is not what I wish to
ultimately point out.)

Now, is a good time to define some of the key words, so we can have a
clear understanding, of what the Bible is actually saying, and not
saying...

As (Page: 87) ( NOT USED IN THESE VERSES )As (#), adv. &q conj. [OE. as, als, alse, also, al swa, AS. eal
sw&qamacr;, lit. all so; hence, quite so, quite as: cf. G. als as,
than, also so, then. See Also.]
1. Denoting equality or likeness in kind, degree, or manner; like;
similar to; in the same manner with or in which; in accordance with;
in proportion to; to the extent or degree in which or to which;
equally; no less than; as, ye shall be as gods, knowing good and
evil; you will reap as you sow; do as you are bidden.

In (Page: 740)
In, prep. [AS. in; akin to D. &q G. in, Icel. &qimacr;, Sw. &q Dan.
i, OIr. &q L. in, Gr. . . Cf. 1st In-, Inn.] The specific
signification of in is situation or place with respect to
surrounding, environment, encompassment, etc. It is used with verbs
signifying being, resting, or moving within limits, or within
circumstances or conditions of any kind conceived of as limiting,
confining, or investing, either wholly or in part. In its different
applications, it approaches some of the meanings of, and sometimes is
interchangeable with, within, into, on, at, of, and among. It is
used: --
1. With reference to space or place; as, he lives in Boston; he
traveled in Italy; castles in the air.
The babe lying in a manger. Luke ii. 16.
Thy sun sets weeping in the lowly west. Shak.
Situated in the forty-first degree of latitude. Gibbon.
Matter for censure in every page. Macaulay.

Appear (Page: 71)
Ap*pear" (#), v. i. [imp. &q p. p. Appeared (#); p. pr. &q vb. n.
Appearing.] [OE. apperen, aperen, OF. aparoir, F. apparoir, fr. L.
apparre to appear + parreto come forth, to be visible; prob. from the
same root as parre to produce. Cf. Apparent, Parent, Peer, v. i.]
1. To come or be in sight; to be in view; to become visible.
And God . . . said, Let . . . the dry land appear. Gen. i. 9.

SPIRIT ( NOT USED IN THESE VERSES )
. Life, or living substance, considered independently of corporeal
existence; an intelligence conceived of apart from any physical
organization or embodiment; vital essence, force, or energy, as
distinct from matter. 3
4. The intelligent, immaterial and immortal part of man; the soul, in
distinction from the body in which it resides; the agent or subject
of vital and spiritual functions, whether spiritual or material.
There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth
them understanding. Job xxxii. 8.
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is
dead also. James ii. 26.
Spirit is a substance wherein thinking, knowing, doubting, and a
power of moving, do subsist. Locke.
5. Specifically, a disembodied soul; the human soul after it has left
the body.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit
shall return unto God who gave it. Eccl. xii. 7.
Ye gentle spirits far away, With whom we shared the cup of grace.
Keble.
6. Any supernatural being, good or bad; an apparition; a specter; a
ghost; also, sometimes, a sprite,; a fairy; an elf.
Whilst young, preserve his tender mind from all impressions of
spirits and goblins in the dark. Locke.

beanpie

THE BIBLE-"AS" vs "IN"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: And the LORD said to Moses, "Lo, I am coming to you in a thick
cloud,

God here states tht He is coming in a thick cloud of smoke, not as a
thick cloud of smoke. According to the dictionarie's definition of
the word "in", God must have a form. According to the dictionary
definition of the word "spirit", it does not have the ability
to "appear", without a base.

2: And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out
of the midst of a bush;
The previous is very clear, when one considers the meaning of the
words.
So, the question is not whether God "appeared" or not. The question
is, in what "form", did He and His angel appear?

Remember, they did not "appear" as these things, they appeared in
them.

COMMENTS WELCOME

Hazel-rah

Let me see if I'm following you. Are you differentiating between the idea that God (or his angel) actually changed physical form (the cloud was God), vs. the idea that God (or his angel) simply chose a different mask through which to present Himself to, or communicate with, humans?

In other words, if my Rice Krispies say "snap, crackle, pop" to me in the morning, has God become a bowl of Rice Krispies or is He merely using my Rice Krispies as a mouthpiece?

Amaleq13

Assuming the story is describing literal events, the mountain scene with the "clouds" reads to me like Moses is "interpreting" something like a minor volcanic eruption as though it is God speaking. This would explain why the people could hear God speaking but still require Moses to tell them His words.

I got nothing for the burning bush if it is assumed to be a description of literal events rather than a hallucination, I mean "vision".

Both smoke/clouds and fire are "ambiguous stimuli" commonly used by fortune tellers, prophets, and soothsayers. Entering into their trance, they are capable of interpreting a "message" from the chaotic action. This, I think, is the best understanding of God or angels appearing "in" such a context.

beanpie

No. I am diffrentiating what most believe-"as" vs what the Bible actually says-"in".

beanpie

may I ask, why?

Amaleq13

For the reasons already given. As you point out, God does not appear "as" either the bush or the cloud but appears "in". Given that the OT also clearly indicates God's face cannot be seen by man, the really only leaves the option that Moses and Moses alone saw God "in" the bush and cloud. Likewise, Moses alone heard the words spoken by God though everyone apparently heard God's "voice".

Both accounts indicate Moses is seeing and/or hearing things that only Moses perceives. That suggests to me that anyone else viewing the bush or cloud could not see God "in" them.

beanpie

first quote by "contracycle", from another thread

Are you calling Jacob a liar?


quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Genesis, chapter 32 I
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [6] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amaleq13

beanpie,


You got me. The Old Testament makes contradictory statements.

If I had any faith, I would have lost it.