Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AtheistVirus · 04-01-2008, 05:46 PM

I would like to know some hard facts as to how the Holy Ghost came to be and all that.
btw is he the one who inseminated Virgin Mary or was it some angel?

Also, what supernatural dogmatic/sacred things did Catholic Church create outside of bible?

Huon · 04-02-2008, 12:49 AM

You could google "catholic encyclopedia", and search for "Holy Ghost". You will get a lengthy text, which will give you the catholic references to the Holy Ghost. Simply, be cautious. When they write "it is undisputed that ...", you should understand "it is undisputed inside the Roman Catholic Church that ...".

It seems that many references come from gJohn. It seems also that the eastern christian churches do not exactly believe the same things as the RCC.

Huon · 04-02-2008, 01:03 AM

New American Standard Bible :
Matthew 1,18-20.
18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

19. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

20. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1,26-35.
26. Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,

27. to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28. And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

29. But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.

30. The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

31. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

32. "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

33. and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

34. Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"

35. The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Edited to add :
If you want a text of the Bible, google "Unbound Bible". You will find the text of the Bible in many languages, on the site biola.

AtheistVirus · 04-02-2008, 05:27 AM

So basically, Holy Spirit is transitory entity between non-material and material realm? He is the material hand of God or something?

Huon · 04-02-2008, 12:21 PM

http://www.trosch.org/the/trinity.html

The Holy Ghost, the eternally transitional being, is universal by association, a spiration eternally initiated by reason of the existence of God the Father and the only natural Son. His is a functional relationship between God the Father and other forms of existence. His identity is differentiated from both the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost would not exist without the existence of both God the Father and the Son. His spirated, but uncreated existence is necessary due to the totally different forms (identifying natures) of existence of the Father and the Son.

The existence of God the Father is requisite for all other existence.
The existence of the Son of God gives purpose, reason for, and meaning to all other existence.
The existence of the Holy Ghost is necessary for all association and activity.

What God the Father is, His Son is not. The Holy Ghost is the bridge/ commonality/ link/ communicator between God the Father and Jesus His Son. Each person of the Trinity has a Divine nature and a nature that gives Him particular identity. Jesus has both a human (particular) nature and a divine (spiritual) nature. Neither God the Father nor the Holy Ghost has a human nature but do have uniquely identifiable natures united with their divine nature.

Note 1 : I don't know the exact meaning of the word "spiration". It seems that this word is used only in relation with the Holy Spirit. French is a latin language, and I can see easily the etymology of this word. Spirare (latin), Spirit, spiration have the same root, meaning to breathe.

Note 2 : If you understand this gobbledegook, do please translate it to me !

Perhaps, the Holy Spirit is the mailman ?

Clivedurdle · 04-02-2008, 03:27 PM

Sorry, this thread is all heresy so far!

Seek the truth!

http://www.bible.ca/cr-assemblies-of-god.htm

:devil1:

Quote:

(b) Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead
Christ taught a distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but that this distinction and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible, because unexplained. Luke 1:35; 1 Cor 1:24; Matt. 11:25-27; 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; 1 John 1:3,4.
(c) Unity of the One Being of Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Accordingly, therefore, there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not the Father; and there is that in the Holy Ghost which constitutes Him the Holy Ghost and not either the Father or the Son. Wherefore the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten, and the Holy Ghost is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son. Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one. John 1:18; 15:26; 17:11, 21; Zech 14:9.
(d) Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead
The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation; nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation. The Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship. The Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son, as to fellowship. The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father, as to authority. The Holy Ghost is from the Father and the Son proceeding, as to nature, relationship, cooperation and authority. Hence, neither Person in the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the others. John 5:17-30, 32, 37; John 8:17, 18

Huon · 04-04-2008, 08:23 AM

Sorry, Clive ! I was not conscious enough that I could fall into a heresy, and thus, end my miserable life in the flames of Hell !

I have looked at the possible heretics, on the subject of the Holy Ghost. There are many, many heretics on this subject :

In the second and third centuries, the dynamic or modalistic Monarchians (certain Ebionites, it is said, Theodotus of Byzantium, Paul of Samosata, Praxeas, Noëtus, Sabellius, and the Patripassians generally) held that the same Divine Person, according to His different operations or manifestations, is in turn called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; so they recognized a purely nominal Trinity.
In the fourth century and later, the Arians and their numerous heretical offspring: Anomeans or Eunomians, Semi-Arians, Acacians, etc., while admitting the triple personality, denied the consubstantiality. Arianism had been preceded by the Subordination theory of some ante-Nicene writers, who affirmed a difference and a gradation between the Divine Persons other than those that arise from their relations in point of origin.
In the sixteenth century, the Socinians explicitly rejected, in the name of reason, along with all the mysteries of Christianity, the doctrine of Three Persons in One God.
Mention may also be made of the teachings of Johannes Philoponus (sixth century), Roscellinus, Gilbert de la Porrée, Joachim of Flora (eleventh and twelfth centuries), who, by denying or obscuring the doctrine of the numerical unity of the Divine Nature, it reality set up a triple deity.
In addition to these systems and these writers, who came in conflict with the true doctrine about the Holy Ghost only indirectly and as a logical result of previous errors, there were others who attacked the truth directly:
Towards the middle of the fourth century, Macedonius, Bishop of Constantinople, and, after him a number of Semi-Arians, while apparently admitting the Divinity of the Word, denied that of the Holy Ghost. They placed Him among the spirits, inferior ministers of God, but higher than the angels. They were, under the name of Pneumatomachians, condemned by the Council of Constantinople, in 381.
Since the days of Photius, the schismatic Greeks maintain that the Holy Ghost, true God like the Father and the Son, proceeds from the former alone.

So, I could be a Monarchian, or an Arian, or a semi-Arian, or a Socinian, or a Pneumatomachian, or a schismatic Greek (don't miss that I have written the r).

Clivedurdle · 04-04-2008, 08:54 AM

Has anyone looked at when the term holy ghost or spirit is first used? (What is the correct translation into English?) Is it a specifically xian term?

Might the history of its its coinage help answer other questions?

(And actually because the aog and Elim lot I was brought up in and of whom I was a fully adult baptised member - including speaking in tongues - probably fail a heresy test somewhere I was probably destined for hell before I saw the light! Quelle domage!)

Huon · 04-04-2008, 09:36 AM

In latin it is : Spiritus sanctus
In the latin languages, it is always "Spirit"
In german it is : Der Heilige Geist
Here, one finds the same word (Geist) as the english "ghost".
Another point is this : The KJV speaks of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit has been introduced in the modern versions of the NT, since 1880-1900.

Probably, the word "ghost" has changed its meaning, starting as "spirit", and ending as "phantom".

Clivedurdle · 04-04-2008, 09:44 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters

But back to the topic, is the Holy Spirit a xian invention? When does the term first appear in records?

Might the term be direct evidence for the existence of Jesus? Might he have coined it in Aramaic?

04-01-2008, 05:46 PM	#1
AtheistVirus Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central Europe Posts: 118	Construction of the Holy Ghost and other stuff I would like to know some hard facts as to how the Holy Ghost came to be and all that. btw is he the one who inseminated Virgin Mary or was it some angel? Also, what supernatural dogmatic/sacred things did Catholic Church create outside of bible?

04-02-2008, 12:21 PM	#5
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	http://www.trosch.org/the/trinity.html The Holy Ghost, the eternally transitional being, is universal by association, a spiration eternally initiated by reason of the existence of God the Father and the only natural Son. His is a functional relationship between God the Father and other forms of existence. His identity is differentiated from both the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost would not exist without the existence of both God the Father and the Son. His spirated, but uncreated existence is necessary due to the totally different forms (identifying natures) of existence of the Father and the Son. The existence of God the Father is requisite for all other existence. The existence of the Son of God gives purpose, reason for, and meaning to all other existence. The existence of the Holy Ghost is necessary for all association and activity. What God the Father is, His Son is not. The Holy Ghost is the bridge/ commonality/ link/ communicator between God the Father and Jesus His Son. Each person of the Trinity has a Divine nature and a nature that gives Him particular identity. Jesus has both a human (particular) nature and a divine (spiritual) nature. Neither God the Father nor the Holy Ghost has a human nature but do have uniquely identifiable natures united with their divine nature. Note 1 : I don't know the exact meaning of the word "spiration". It seems that this word is used only in relation with the Holy Spirit. French is a latin language, and I can see easily the etymology of this word. Spirare (latin), Spirit, spiration have the same root, meaning to breathe. Note 2 : If you understand this gobbledegook, do please translate it to me ! Perhaps, the Holy Spirit is the mailman ?

04-04-2008, 08:23 AM	#7
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Sorry, Clive ! I was not conscious enough that I could fall into a heresy, and thus, end my miserable life in the flames of Hell ! I have looked at the possible heretics, on the subject of the Holy Ghost. There are many, many heretics on this subject : In the second and third centuries, the dynamic or modalistic Monarchians (certain Ebionites, it is said, Theodotus of Byzantium, Paul of Samosata, Praxeas, Noëtus, Sabellius, and the Patripassians generally) held that the same Divine Person, according to His different operations or manifestations, is in turn called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; so they recognized a purely nominal Trinity. In the fourth century and later, the Arians and their numerous heretical offspring: Anomeans or Eunomians, Semi-Arians, Acacians, etc., while admitting the triple personality, denied the consubstantiality. Arianism had been preceded by the Subordination theory of some ante-Nicene writers, who affirmed a difference and a gradation between the Divine Persons other than those that arise from their relations in point of origin. In the sixteenth century, the Socinians explicitly rejected, in the name of reason, along with all the mysteries of Christianity, the doctrine of Three Persons in One God. Mention may also be made of the teachings of Johannes Philoponus (sixth century), Roscellinus, Gilbert de la Porrée, Joachim of Flora (eleventh and twelfth centuries), who, by denying or obscuring the doctrine of the numerical unity of the Divine Nature, it reality set up a triple deity. In addition to these systems and these writers, who came in conflict with the true doctrine about the Holy Ghost only indirectly and as a logical result of previous errors, there were others who attacked the truth directly: Towards the middle of the fourth century, Macedonius, Bishop of Constantinople, and, after him a number of Semi-Arians, while apparently admitting the Divinity of the Word, denied that of the Holy Ghost. They placed Him among the spirits, inferior ministers of God, but higher than the angels. They were, under the name of Pneumatomachians, condemned by the Council of Constantinople, in 381. Since the days of Photius, the schismatic Greeks maintain that the Holy Ghost, true God like the Father and the Son, proceeds from the former alone. So, I could be a Monarchian, or an Arian, or a semi-Arian, or a Socinian, or a Pneumatomachian, or a schismatic Greek (don't miss that I have written the r).

04-04-2008, 09:36 AM	#9
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Holy Spirit In latin it is : Spiritus sanctus In the latin languages, it is always "Spirit" In german it is : Der Heilige Geist Here, one finds the same word (Geist) as the english "ghost". Another point is this : The KJV speaks of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit has been introduced in the modern versions of the NT, since 1880-1900. Probably, the word "ghost" has changed its meaning, starting as "spirit", and ending as "phantom".

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04-02-2008, 12:49 AM	#2
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	You could google "catholic encyclopedia", and search for "Holy Ghost". You will get a lengthy text, which will give you the catholic references to the Holy Ghost. Simply, be cautious. When they write "it is undisputed that ...", you should understand "it is undisputed inside the Roman Catholic Church that ...". It seems that many references come from gJohn. It seems also that the eastern christian churches do not exactly believe the same things as the RCC.

04-02-2008, 01:03 AM	#3
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	New American Standard Bible : Matthew 1,18-20. 18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20. But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Luke 1,26-35. 26. Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, 27. to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28. And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you." 29. But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was. 30. The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. 32. "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33. and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." 34. Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?" 35. The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. Edited to add : If you want a text of the Bible, google "Unbound Bible". You will find the text of the Bible in many languages, on the site biola.

04-02-2008, 05:27 AM	#4
AtheistVirus Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Central Europe Posts: 118	So basically, Holy Spirit is transitory entity between non-material and material realm? He is the material hand of God or something?

04-04-2008, 08:54 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Has anyone looked at when the term holy ghost or spirit is first used? (What is the correct translation into English?) Is it a specifically xian term? Might the history of its its coinage help answer other questions? (And actually because the aog and Elim lot I was brought up in and of whom I was a fully adult baptised member - including speaking in tongues - probably fail a heresy test somewhere I was probably destined for hell before I saw the light! Quelle domage!)

04-04-2008, 09:44 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters But back to the topic, is the Holy Spirit a xian invention? When does the term first appear in records? Might the term be direct evidence for the existence of Jesus? Might he have coined it in Aramaic?

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