bfniii

the problem with this implication is that it makes it appear as if God punishes people without their having first made a choice to be punishable.


johnny made the statement that all christians would approve if God gave skeptics a parole. in order for him to be correct, he would have to query every christian from all time. since he can't, his statement is unsupportable. the bible makes the case that people who are punished are ones who chose to be separated from God. therefore, christians who accept the bible as their authority disagree with johnny's statement and in fact, think skeptics should not be given a parole.


most critics here don't seem grasp that the people who are punished are ones who chose to be separated from God. therefore, God's mercy is not in question. God's justice is. God would be unjust if He did not respect the choice that those people have made in forcing someone to a destiny opposite from their choice.

TonyN

So, you think that disproves God will later save all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:4-6? Please say it ain't so!

This verse you quote is concerning the fires and worms in the garbage dump called Gehenna. Today it is a park where you can picnic just to the south of the city of Jerusalem. When the 1000 year reign of Christ will be instituted in Jerusalem, Gehenna will return to being used as a garbage dump where the offal of the city will be burned up or if the fire does not get to it, will be eaten by worms.

The verse in Mark 9:44-49 harks back to Isa 66:24 "And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

Not be quenched does not mean "eternally burn." There was in the Old Testament a fire to burn on the altar that was said "shall not be quenched" but went out thousands of years ago. It is just that during the 1000 years no one will quench or put out the fires in the dump called Gehenna.

Ubercat

So how did Judas die? And what happened to the 30 pieces of silver?

-Ubercat

Johnny Skeptic

How could it be otherwise since God forces everyone to commit sins at least some of the time? Ever since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, by genetics, or by some other means, God has passed a sinful nature on to all succeeding generations. According to the Bible, no one has a choice whether or not to be perfect in this life.

I do not object to oversight and punishment. Without oversight and punishment, there would be anarchy in society. What I object to is the degree to which God causes and allows suffering. The late Vincent Humbert lived in France. He was quadriplegic, blind, and mute. He wanted to die. He asked then President Chirac for an exemption to the French laws that prohibits assisted suicide. Chirac refused. An unknown person mercifully killed Humbert at this request. No one should have to be quadriplegic, blind, and mute. When you and I debated this issue last year at the BC&H forum, you naively asked me where God should stop regarding preventing obstacles and difficulties. The main issue is not where God should stop, but where he should start. Cases like Vincent Humbert would be an excellent place for God to start. So would serious cases of cerebral palsy and multiple sclerosis. It is not necessary to have an enclyclopedia full of suggestions regarding what God should do in every case. All that is necessary is to ask the following question: If God showed up and eliminated some of the most serious physical problems that humans have, would that make Christianity more attractive to people, or less attractive to people?

If God does not wish to do anything different than he is doing, it would be quite helpful if he would show up tangibly, in person, and at least answer some questions.

But what is the Bible? Actually, what was the Bible? The Bible was a collection of original writings. All that we have today are copies of copies. No one knows that the originals said. Are you an inerrantist?

The only reason that some people are separated from God is that he deliberately withholds information from them that they would accept if they were aware of it. If God showed up and created a new galaxy, that would not prove who he is, but surely by faith some people would believe that he was who he said he was and become Christians. Historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less evidence than God creating a new galaxy.

Are you aware that requiring faith is counterproductive if your intention is to convince people to believe that you exist, and to let people know what you want them to do with their lives?

Why do you believe that God deliberately withheld the Gospel message from hundreds of millions of people who died without hearing it? The Gospel message has been spread entirely by human effort according to the prevailing means of communciation, transportation, printing, and translation of a given time period, which is exactly what was to be expected if God does not exist. Kosmin and Lachman wrote a book that is titled 'One Nation Under God'. The authors provide a lot of documented research that shows that in the U.S., the chief factors that determine religious beliefs are geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender, and age. Those factors are entirely secular.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, all tangible benefits would be indiscriminately distributed at random according the laws of physics without any regard for a person's needs or worldview? How is that scenario any different than the scenario that we have today?

Do you believe that God killed babies at Sodom and Gomorrah, and that he killed all of the firstborn males in Egypt? Do you believe that the Bible endorses slavery? If not, surely you will agree that for about 1800 years, most Christians believed that the Bible endorses slavery. Whose fault was that? Do you believe that the world would have been much better off if the Bible clearly opposed slavery, or if Jesus had clearly opposed slavery?

Do you suggest that Christians who are sick should ask God to heal them? If so, do you suggest that Christian amputees should ask God for new arms and legs?

bfniii

what does the bible say?

douglas

Ok. I'll be the sucker and take the bait.

Matthew says that Judas tried to return the money and then committed suicide by hanging himself.

Acts says that he bought a field with the money, but died when his gut busted open, spreading his entrails all over the place.

Now, you've indicated in an earlier post that EVERY contradiction in the bible has an explanation, so I'm expecting you to do the same here. Just give me a chance to fill up my coffee cup before you respond.

bfniii

God does not force people to commit sins


sinful nature is not the issue. if you're concerned about your sins, i know a very easy, readily available method to be forgiven. the issue is mercy. you said God isn't merciful, but He actually is in that He provides the aforementioned propitiation.


and as i said to you in the past, you can't guarantee that any other existence with more or less suffering would be beneficial or meaningful to humans.


oh not again...


ok, prove it. prove that that would be a better way than they way our existence is fashioned now.


since your question begins with an "if", any subsequent answers would be unsupportable speculation. i think you are missing the exact point God is trying to get across to you. humans are supposed to hunger for a better existence. hence, heaven.


and you have never answered the challenge i issued to you: how would you know that it was God? how would you know that you weren't hallucinating? you wouldn't. therefore, you should dispense with this ridiculous request and focus more on why you can't accept the amount of evidence we currently have.


wrong. define "know".


what difference does it make? are you trying to learn about the theology of divine inspiration? we can discuss that if you wish.


now that is completely and utterly untrue. first, you would never be able to prove that valuable, crucial information has been withheld from you. second, you can't guarantee that people would accept God with more information. it's more likely that people like you will never be satisfied with any amount of information.


i saw that thread and i'll get there as soon as i can


define benefits.


well, if you're a christian, you believe that the bible is correct when it says that God directly intervenes on behalf of His will and that there is a purpose behind intercessory prayer. therefore, the universe is not absolutely random.


i believe that there is suffering and death in this life. you are also well aware that i believe that these are valuable experiences and that God is not evil for allowing them.


slavery has happened. which verses do you wish to discuss?


christians are not perfect.


does it cost anything to ask?


matt 4:6, 7

DBT

You must have heard of a certain concept called allegory?
This particular allegory simply uses the OT, and Gehenna, as a foundation for the concept of an eternal hell. Context, tony....context.

9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. (Matthew 25:41)

sharon45

This is even more laughable than what you said earlier. Besides being a blatant fallacy, it is also working backwards. Believers start with a contrived premise and then they self-appoint themselves as the authority. It is a hopeless situation for a critic to allow themselves to be caught in.

The bible is a book that does not exclusively belong to believers, so anyone is allowed to find and annouce any mistake that is in there. Such foolish defense tactics as in any explanation counting as the absolute answer or counter argument are positively worthless and just further expose the weaknesses of attempting to save what can not be saved.

sharon45

Besides the bible already supporting the very case, god put all the rules of the game together, exhibiting to most believers that all of us are given free will to choose, yet this is hardly a certainity since in the bible (and supposedly in real life if there even is a god), god constantly interferes, so many times he is unquestionably barring choice.

Again wrong, and I have the exact quote here from the OP that you were directly responding to:He simply says "christians", not "all christians". None of us are very often going to cater to the entire belief of christianity with its thousands of different sects and literally millions of individual personalized beliefs.
Right, that is why he didn't say all christians as I had originally pointed out earlier.
You should mean the bible incorrectly states this since it is a belief that is not completely supported in the book.Of course god is unjust since people are not clearly given an actually choice. It is only established as a belief that there even is a god and still much more mere beliefs added that this god has made not only himself known, but his plan for all humanity. Further beliefs declare to place the bible as to containing not only said god, but this god's said plan.

The god shown in the bible is an extremely unsavory character, one that most decent people would outright reject if it were about any other person, but it should be even more so from one thought to be a loving god. A choice akin to either be beaten with a metal pipe or a metal chain.