Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 01-15-2009, 02:56 PM

It has already been discussed before, and Clivedurdle recently posted a quote that includes a reference to it, but is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, On Anger 1.2.2?

Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra diffindere.

Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on] for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched upon the cross.

It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some of the deaths seem pretty specific.

Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended referents or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Ben.

Huon · 01-15-2009, 11:52 PM

Tu quoque, fili !
Caesar and Brutus.

After quoting a line from Homer's Iliad ("Hark, now strikes on my ear the trampling of swift-footed coursers!") Nero drove a dagger into his throat.

Clivedurdle · 01-16-2009, 12:46 AM

Stretched limbs on a cross could be anyone - a crony of Spartacus?

Huon · 01-16-2009, 01:16 AM

diffindere is not exactly "stretch". It is usually translated "divide". However, in cruce speaks clearly of a cross. But I never heard of an important person of the roman history who died on a cross. This sort of death was reserved to slaves. The circumstances of the death of Spartacus are unknown. He disappeared.

I would rather understand this as the circumstances of the murder of Caligula.

Clivedurdle · 01-16-2009, 02:35 AM

That is why I wrote crony.

Quote:

6,600 of Spartacus's followers were crucified along the via Appia (or the Appian Way) from Brundisium to Rome. Crassus never gave orders for the bodies to be taken down, thus travelers were forced to see the bodies for years after the final battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacus

Clivedurdle · 01-16-2009, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Godlike behavior

Ruins of the temple of Castor and Pollux in the Forum Romanum. Ancient resources as well as recent archeological evidence suggest that, at one point, Caligula had the palace extended to annex this structure.

In 40, Caligula began implementing very controversial policies that introduced religion into his political role. Caligula began appearing in public dressed as various gods and demigods such as Hercules, Mercury, Venus and Apollo.[79] Reportedly, he began referring to himself as a god when meeting with politicians and he was referred to as Jupiter on occasion in public documents.[80][81] A sacred precinct was set apart for his worship at Miletus in the province of Asia and two temples were erected for worship of him in Rome.[81] The Temple of Castor and Pollux on the Forum was linked directly to the Imperial residence on the Palatine and dedicated to Caligula.[81][82] He would appear here on occasion and present himself as a god to the public.
Caligula's religious policy was a departure from that of his predecessors. According to Cassius Dio, living Emperors could be worshipped as divine in the east and dead Emperors could be worshipped as divine in Rome.[83] Augustus also had the public worship his spirit on occasion, but Dio describes this as an extreme act that emperors generally shied away from.[83] Caligula took things a step further and had those in Rome, including Senators, worship him as a physical living god. [84]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula

This guy seems to be extremely important for the birth of xianity...

Huon · 01-16-2009, 07:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger

Quote:

Caligula began his first year as emperor in 38, and there was a severe conflict between him and Seneca; the emperor is said to have spared his life only because he expected Seneca's natural life to be near its end.

In 41, Emperor Claudius succeeded Caligula, and then, at the behest of his wife Messalina, banished Seneca to Corsica on a charge of adultery with Julia Livilla. Seneca spent his exile in philosophical and natural study (a life counseled by Roman Stoic thought) and wrote the Consolations, fulfilling a request for the text made by his sons for the sake of posterity.

De Ira (On anger) was (admittedly) written in 41 CE, while Seneca had time to write (

).

Another point which I do not understand clearly :

Quote:

Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on] for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them.

It seems that the roman empire suffered from economic crisis during the reign of Tiberius (14-37), especially in 33. Tiberius ordered the rich people to invest 2/3 of their fortune in lands in Italy. What happened : the bankers (usurers) forced their clients to sell their lands at low prices. Tiberius had to inject 100 millions sesterces in loans without interest during 3 years.

We would never see that, today ...

andrewcriddle · 01-16-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

diffindere is not exactly "stretch". It is usually translated "divide". However, in cruce speaks clearly of a cross. But I never heard of an important person of the roman history who died on a cross. This sort of death was reserved to slaves. The circumstances of the death of Spartacus are unknown. He disappeared.

I would rather understand this as the circumstances of the murder of Caligula.

One of the Hannibal's was crucified by his own men see hannibal_3

Andrew Criddle

Ben C Smith · 01-19-2009, 06:30 AM

A big thank you to everyone who made proposals on this thread, and to Jeffrey Gibson for submitted my question to a Classics list, whose suggested results I hope to post here sometime soon.

Ben.

Clivedurdle · 01-19-2009, 08:44 AM

Is the throat opened one Crassus?

01-15-2009, 02:56 PM	#1
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	Seneca and On Anger 1.2.2 revisited. It has already been discussed before, and Clivedurdle recently posted a quote that includes a reference to it, but is it possible to identify all the victims in Seneca, On Anger 1.2.2? Aspice nobilissimarum civitatum fundamenta vix notabilia; has ira deiecit. aspice solitudines per multa milia sine habitatore desertas; has ira exhausit. aspice tot memoriae proditos duces mali exempla fati; alium ira in cubili suo confodit, alium intra sacra mensae iura percussit, alium intra leges celebrisque spectaculum fori lancinavit, alium filii parricidio dare sanguinem iussit, alium servili manu regalem aperire iugulum, alium in cruce membra diffindere. Behold the foundations of the noblest cities which can scarcely be noted; anger cast them down. Behold deserted solitudes [going on] for many miles without inhabitant; anger wasted them. Behold so many leaders who have been handed down to memory as examples of an evil fate; anger stabbed one in his bed, struck another amidst the sacred laws of the table, tore another to pieces amongst the laws and as a spectacle for the crowded forum, forced another to give his blood by the parricidal act of his son, another to have his royal throat opened by the hand of a slave, another to have his limbs stretched upon the cross. It is possible that Seneca is being generic here, I suppose, but some of the deaths seem pretty specific. Sertorius was killed at a banquet, one of the Gracchus brothers (I think) was killed by a slave, and Asellio was killed in the forum. (So was Galba, but he died after Seneca.) Are these the intended referents or not? Who suffered parricide? Who was stabbed in bed? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Ben.

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01-15-2009, 11:52 PM	#2
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	Tu quoque, fili ! Caesar and Brutus. After quoting a line from Homer's Iliad ("Hark, now strikes on my ear the trampling of swift-footed coursers!") Nero drove a dagger into his throat.

01-16-2009, 12:46 AM	#3
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Stretched limbs on a cross could be anyone - a crony of Spartacus?

01-16-2009, 01:16 AM	#4
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	diffindere is not exactly "stretch". It is usually translated "divide". However, in cruce speaks clearly of a cross. But I never heard of an important person of the roman history who died on a cross. This sort of death was reserved to slaves. The circumstances of the death of Spartacus are unknown. He disappeared. I would rather understand this as the circumstances of the murder of Caligula.

01-19-2009, 06:30 AM	#9
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	A big thank you to everyone who made proposals on this thread, and to Jeffrey Gibson for submitted my question to a Classics list, whose suggested results I hope to post here sometime soon. Ben.

01-19-2009, 08:44 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is the throat opened one Crassus?

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