FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-10-2011, 11:12 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 5,629
Default Early Christians giving ammunition to their opponents

As we all know, the brothers of Jesus were very active in the movement, and one of them became the leader of the Jerusalem church.

Matthew 12
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

That must really have demolished any authority these leaders had.

Disowned by their own brother in a text written by Christians.

"Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy" was a quotation used during the 1988 United States vice-presidential debate by Democratic vice-presidential candidate Senator Lloyd Bentsen to Republican vice-presidential candidate Senator Dan Quayle..... Since then, the words "You're no Jack Kennedy," or some variation on Bentsen's remark, have become a part of the political lexicon as a way to deflate politicians or other individuals perceived as thinking too highly of themselves.

That was a pretty devastating remark by Bentsen.

Imagine though if Ted Kennedy had said it about Robert Kennedy - the way early Christians claimed their Jesus had said it about his brothers - 'James, you are no brother of mine.'

Just how could brothers of Jesus have made it to becoming leaders in a church where Christians themselves claimed Jesus had disowned his brothers and appointed new ones from his disciples?
Steven Carr is offline  
Old 07-10-2011, 12:10 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posts: 9,176
Default

You know, in a weird way, I understood some of those passages in my previous life as
making some sense, in a different way.

You know the old joke about how, behind every great man is a shocked/disbelieving
wife/mother-in-law/parents etc?

Show me a man or woman who achieves great things, and I will give you decent odds that
during the process of growing towards those great things, there was a family member telling them that
they couldn't do it, and would rather they stayed home and worked at a respectable
job at the dry goods store.

Now, is this sort of thing - the family being the tar pit holding great men and women back - universally true? Not by a long shot. But I saw elements suggesting that
a theme of "a great man walks alone" running around in the NT, and in some of jesus
teachings.

I even used to believe that this sort of thing was a part of the idea of a priest not
having a family - that his priority had to be to god and his flock, and that a family
hindered the execution of thise priorities.

Now, when I see those rebukes to his family, I doubt that this message was ever
heard by anyone on scene, but was meant by the authors to convey their message
to the reader, centuries after the "events".

Of course, I have been wrong before in the last 10 seconds.
dockeen is offline  
Old 07-11-2011, 06:20 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default

Eusebius Book II Chapter 23. The Martyrdom of James, who was called the Brother of the Lord.
Eusebius quotes Hegesippus, of whom we have nothing left, except the quotes by Eusebius.
Eusebius quotes also the TF of Josephus :
"These things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus, that is called the Christ. For the Jews slew him, although he was a most just man."

Eusebius Book III Chapter 11. Symeon rules the Church of Jerusalem after James.

1. It is reported that after the age of Nero and Domitian, under the emperor whose times we are now recording, a persecution was stirred up against us in certain cities in consequence of a popular uprising. In this persecution we have understood that Symeon, the son of Clopas, who, as we have shown, was the second bishop of the church of Jerusalem, suffered martyrdom.
2. Hegesippus, whose words we have already quoted in various places, is a witness to this fact also. Speaking of certain heretics he adds that Symeon was accused by them at this time; and since it was clear that he was a Christian, he was tortured in various ways for many days, and astonished even the judge himself and his attendants in the highest degree, and finally he suffered a death similar to that of our Lord.
3. But there is nothing like hearing the historian himself, who writes as follows: "Certain of these heretics brought accusation against Symeon, the son of Clopas, on the ground that he was a descendant of David and a Christian; and thus he suffered martyrdom, at the age of one hundred and twenty years, while Trajan was emperor and Atticus governor."

Of course, the story related in gMatt is authentic....
Huon is offline  
Old 08-01-2011, 03:56 PM   #4
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Default

Good question. I don't remember James being a named brother in the Gospels? Prob a late tradition - I know it's in Paul but might not mean sibling there.
EmmaZunz is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:44 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.