Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 11-12-2009, 12:08 AM

Why are they thought to be the same thing?

Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving?

Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking?

Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea.

But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly.....

Syncretism again?

dog-on · 11-12-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why are they thought to be the same thing?

Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving?

Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking?

Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea.

But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly.....

Syncretism again?

It's what happens when you mix humus with bacon...

Huon · 11-12-2009, 01:42 AM

From Jewish Encyclopedia, Messiah :

Quote:

In the Old Testament the earliest use of the word is with Yhwh (or with a pronominal suffix referring to Yhwh) as a title of the ruling sovereign Meshiah Yhwh ("God's anointed one"; I Sam. ii. 10, 35; xii. 3, 5; xvi. 6; xxvi. 9, 11, 16, 23; II Sam. i. 14, 16; xix. 21; II Chron. vi. 42; Ps. xviii. 51 [A. V. 50]; xx. 7 [A. V. 6]; cxxxii. 17 [applying to David]; Lam. iv. 20). In post-exilic times, the high priest, filling the place formerly occupied by the king, is spoken of as "ha-Kohen ha-Mashiah" (the anointed priest; Lev. iv. 3, 5, 16; vi. 5), also (Dan. ix. 25, 26) as "Mashiah Nagid" (an anointed one, a ruler) and simply "Mashiah" (an anointed one), referring to Onias III. As the anointing of the high priest consecrated him above all his brethren to God's service and gave him immediate access to God (comp. Lev. viii. 12, xxi. 10-12; Zech. iii. 7), so the anointing of the king made him Meshiah Yhwh, placed him in a special relationship to God, and established him as the one chosen by God to represent His rulership in Israel and to bear witness to His glory before the nations (comp. II Sam. vii. 8-11, 14; Isa. lv. 4; Ps. lxxxix. 4, 21-29). As "God's anointed one" the king was sacrosanct and inviolable (comp. I Sam. xxvi. 9). Hence the later applications of the title "Meshiah Yhwh" in the Old Testament.

There is another use of the title Messiah, linked to apocalyptic literature.

Perhaps, Jesus ben Joseph was seen as a Meshiah Yhwh, placed in a special relationship to God, and established as the one chosen by God to represent His rulership in Israel and to bear witness to His glory before the nations...

gurugeorge · 11-12-2009, 02:11 AM

The way I see it, that's what the Christian myth originally was: simply a re-conceptualising of what the Messiah was, to place him in the recent-ish past instead of the near future, and to re-value his values, so that he was a spiritual victor rather than a military victor.

IOW the Christian Messiah was fully as much of a myth as the standard Messiah, only with some conceptual reversals.

Over time, the biography of his advent in the recent-ish past was filled in, one branch of the cult fabricated a lineage going back to people who knew him personally, and there you have it.

aa5874 · 11-12-2009, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

From Jewish Encyclopedia, Messiah :

Quote:

In the Old Testament the earliest use of the word is with Yhwh (or with a pronominal suffix referring to Yhwh) as a title of the ruling sovereign Meshiah Yhwh ("God's anointed one"; I Sam. ii. 10, 35; xii. 3, 5; xvi. 6; xxvi. 9, 11, 16, 23; II Sam. i. 14, 16; xix. 21; II Chron. vi. 42; Ps. xviii. 51 [A. V. 50]; xx. 7 [A. V. 6]; cxxxii. 17 [applying to David]; Lam. iv. 20). In post-exilic times, the high priest, filling the place formerly occupied by the king, is spoken of as "ha-Kohen ha-Mashiah" (the anointed priest; Lev. iv. 3, 5, 16; vi. 5), also (Dan. ix. 25, 26) as "Mashiah Nagid" (an anointed one, a ruler) and simply "Mashiah" (an anointed one), referring to Onias III. As the anointing of the high priest consecrated him above all his brethren to God's service and gave him immediate access to God (comp. Lev. viii. 12, xxi. 10-12; Zech. iii. 7), so the anointing of the king made him Meshiah Yhwh, placed him in a special relationship to God, and established him as the one chosen by God to represent His rulership in Israel and to bear witness to His glory before the nations (comp. II Sam. vii. 8-11, 14; Isa. lv. 4; Ps. lxxxix. 4, 21-29). As "God's anointed one" the king was sacrosanct and inviolable (comp. I Sam. xxvi. 9). Hence the later applications of the title "Meshiah Yhwh" in the Old Testament.

There is another use of the title Messiah, linked to apocalyptic literature.

Perhaps, Jesus ben Joseph was seen as a Meshiah Yhwh, placed in a special relationship to God, and established as the one chosen by God to represent His rulership in Israel and to bear witness to His glory before the nations...

But, there was no Jesus ben Joseph in the NT. You obviously made that up. And in the NT, Jesus was deemed to be a blasphemer.

Jesus was not even regarded as Christ or Messiah and did not encouraged the populace to call him Christ or Messiah.

Based on the Synoptics, it was the very day he as crucified, that he admitted or implied that he was Christ or Messiah.

Now, it would appear that the word "Messiah" as found in the book of Daniel and "Christ" as found in the NT were transliterated to Greek using the same Greek word.

show_no_mercy · 11-12-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why are they thought to be the same thing?

Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving?

Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking?

Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea.

But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly.....

Syncretism again?

Christ and messiah are the same thing, just in different languages. Look at Isaiah 45:1:

Quote:

This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus

But in the Greek LXX, this is what is says:

Quote:

ουτως λεγει κυριος ο θεος τω χριστω μου κυρω

The bolded word is "christ". It's only later Christians who conflated the Hebrew messiah (i.e. "christ") with a savior god. Unless it's implied that Cyrus the Great was a savior god.

semiopen · 11-12-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why are they thought to be the same thing?

Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving?

Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking?

Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea.

But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly.....

Syncretism again?

Moshiach also means annointed in Hebrew.

The concept evolved over time, where a figure like Jesus seems to be a reasonable approximation of what the messiah should look like.

The

Messiah_ben_Joseph was mentioned in a previous post, although I'm not clear what the reference had to do with that. It seems reasonable to give this title to Jesus, since he died and his father was presumably named Joseph.

While the whole messianic concept is dubious, I don't see why an evolving sophistication can be rejected because it is not the same as the original concept. After all the ancients may have thought pi=3 originally, that doesn't mean we should reject 3.14...

Clivedurdle · 11-12-2009, 08:48 AM

Quote:

This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus

"This is what the Lord says to his christ, to Cyrus."

Why isn't the Hebrew Bible translated like that?

Toto · 11-12-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus

"This is what the Lord says to his christ, to Cyrus."

Why isn't the Hebrew Bible translated like that?

It was translated like that when it was translated into Greek.

Huon · 11-12-2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Moshiach also means annointed in Hebrew.

The concept evolved over time, where a figure like Jesus seems to be a reasonable approximation of what the messiah should look like.

The

Messiah_ben_Joseph was mentioned in a previous post, although I'm not clear what the reference had to do with that. It seems reasonable to give this title to Jesus, since he died and his father was presumably named Joseph.

I did not mean the

Messiah_ben_Joseph who is much later than the writing of the NT. I simply meant Jesus of the NT. Just a small joke.

11-12-2009, 12:08 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Christ and Messiah Why are they thought to be the same thing? Christ means annointed. What has that to do with leading and saving? Has a confusion occurred because of an intermingling of cultures and ways of thinking? Messiah is a classic warrior leader idea. But the Greeks loved ideas and concepts - they were led by ideas - Logos, glass darkly..... Syncretism again?

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11-12-2009, 02:11 AM	#4
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	The way I see it, that's what the Christian myth originally was: simply a re-conceptualising of what the Messiah was, to place him in the recent-ish past instead of the near future, and to re-value his values, so that he was a spiritual victor rather than a military victor. IOW the Christian Messiah was fully as much of a myth as the standard Messiah, only with some conceptual reversals. Over time, the biography of his advent in the recent-ish past was filled in, one branch of the cult fabricated a lineage going back to people who knew him personally, and there you have it.

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