Freethought & Rationalism Archive

True American · 06-22-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

Why believe in something that there is no evidence for? I don't believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny either. There's as much evidence for those entities as for God, Jesus, and Moses.

The keyword being "supposed". There is no reason to believe that this book is truthful at all. It describes events that are not confirmed by history, geology, archaeology, or any other science. Despite the Bible's claim of a massive migration from Egypt to Cannan, there is no trace of such an event--no pottery, no campfire remains, no ancient latrines, nothing. The Bible claims that the Hebrews were slaves of the Egyptians for years, yet there isn't a shade of Egyptian influence in any of the pottery, constructs, art, or anything else. The Bible claims that in the space of just over a month, enough water rained down on the Earth to flood ALL of it everywhere. That's not "rain", that's hydraulic mining...there would scarecly by any mountains left! The Bible claims that snakes could talk, that the sun could be stopped by a man, that the dead can spontaniously rise, and that slavery isn't a bad thing.

Are there any extrabiblical sources mentioning Jesus? The Exodus? The Flood? Any Roman historians mentioning some guy wandering around the Middle East performing miracles...or even a whisper about such a man going on trial or being executed? Any single, worldwide mile-deep layers of sediment? Nope.

The only reason you have to believe any of this is because someone (parents, preacher, minister, cultural tradition) said so.

Ring around the rosey we go... blah, blah, blah...
Still nitpicking on the word "supposed" ...

Listen! The Holy Bible is a book which was written as absolute truth. Most of it is hogwash. I'm sure they had to beef it up a little in the first place, but since it has been translated a gozillion times and more has been added and exageration runs amuck... The stories have become almost unthinkably fiction.

As a normal human being, assuming that we can trust when we're told the book is NON-fiction, we should be reading it as such. Just as you believe "The Bible Unearthed" is the "GOD'S" honest truth. I could sit here calling that book crap too because I have yet to see any proof that their findings aren't all bullshit. This can go on & on & on.

So, assuming the Bible is the absolute truth it claims to be, Moses, Jesus & Noah have been factually documented. Being that I really couldn't care less whether they existed or not isn't the issue. I believe they had to have at least existed to create this much of a fuss in a book that is not only called "The Good Book," but is supposed to be actual truth. (There, I said "Supposed" a couple more times so you can rag on me some more about it)

The language I use is meant to relate to precisely what I mean. This book is "SUPPOSED" to be the truth. No wonder everyone's so fucked up over it.
Fact is: This is an Atheist site isn't it? You're in America aren't you? Without the Holy Bible to dispute, you're pretty much out of business.

Gooch's dad · 06-22-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True American

So, assuming the Bible is the absolute truth it claims to be, Moses, Jesus & Noah have been factually documented.

There is no reason to assume that the Bible is absolute truth. For one thing, it doesn't claim to be, and even if it did, that would be completely circular logic.

So those characters are no more "factually documented" than Athena and Zeus are.

You claim that in a few years, "The Bible Unearthed" will be debunked. How do you know that? Do you think that *everything* that we've discovered will someday turn out to be completely wrong? Will we find out that the earth really isn't a rough spheroid, that it really IS flat? Will heliocentrism turn out to be wrong, and an earth-centered solar system will be correct again? Of course not.

The archeologists who wrote that book have a wealth of data showing that the Exodus simply didn't happen.

As for Noah and the flood--Christian geologists discarded the flood hypothesis nearly 200 years ago, based on sound evidence. We know for a fact that no worldwide flood "to the tops of the highest mountains" occurred in the last 10,000 years.

Toto · 06-22-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True American

. . .

The language I use is meant to relate to precisely what I mean. This book is "SUPPOSED" to be the truth. No wonder everyone's so fucked up over it.
Fact is: This is an Atheist site isn't it? You're in America aren't you? Without the Holy Bible to dispute, you're pretty much out of business.

Your language leaves me wondering if we have a common vocabulary, or enough agreement on terms to have a meaningful discussion.

You claim that the Bible is mostly fictional, but we have to accept it as truth just because that's what it is "supposed" to be?

Or are you just saying that since we can't prove something to your satisfaction, that we have to respect your belief in it?

And we would not be out of business without the Holy Bible to dispute. We would still have the Qur'an, Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, etc., etc.

True American · 06-22-2005, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Or are you just saying that since we can't prove something to your satisfaction, that we have to respect your belief in it?

And we would not be out of business without the Holy Bible to dispute. We would still have the Qur'an, Dianetics, the Book of Mormon, etc., etc.

Well here's the base of this whole discussion isn't it?
I certainly haven't given you any crap for your NON-belief in it.
Be my guest!

I simply say I believe that Moses, Jesus & Noah existed. This makes about the 30th time I've said this. If you don't believe they did... Goody two shoes for you.
As for the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon etc. etc.....
You wouldn't have enough opposition in America to get enough members to support this site. Let's be realistic shall we?

You're entire existence here is based on bashing the Holy Bible. I have only been talking about the Bible for two days and prior to this, I haven't spoken of it in 40 years. You all do it 20 times a day every day.

So, go on bashing it. I've said about all there is to say on this matter.
We appear, as I suspected we would be, at a stalemate.

I'll be more than happy to see you all again in a thread which suits my liking far better. Like Politics. There, we can have some better arguments.

Avatar · 06-22-2005, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Listen! The Holy Bible is a book which was written as absolute truth. Most of it is hogwash. I'm sure they had to beef it up a little in the first place, but since it has been translated a gozillion times and more has been added and exageration runs amuck... The stories have become almost unthinkably fiction.

You're contradicting yourself here. Are you trying to say that the Bible was originall written was the absolute truth and then got embroidered later? I still fail to see why I should assume there is any truth to it at all.

Quote:

As a normal human being, assuming that we can trust when we're told the book is NON-fiction, we should be reading it as such. Just as you believe "The Bible Unearthed" is the "GOD'S" honest truth. I could sit here calling that book crap too because I have yet to see any proof that their findings aren't all bullshit. This can go on & on & on.

I have no reason to trust that the Bible is non-fiction, especially in light of the points I made before. As for TBE, I don't regerd that as the "GODS" honest truth...but I consider its evidence far more trustworthy than some myth-filled book. Try reading it, then we can talk about whether or not their findings are bullshit. I've done my part: I've read the Bible.

Quote:

So, assuming the Bible is the absolute truth it claims to be, Moses, Jesus & Noah have been factually documented. Being that I really couldn't care less whether they existed or not isn't the issue. I believe they had to have at least existed to create this much of a fuss in a book that is not only called "The Good Book," but is supposed to be actual truth. (There, I said "Supposed" a couple more times so you can rag on me some more about it)

An assumption that I am not willing to make. You're talking about circular reasoning here, based on a shaky premise: That the Bible is the Absolute Truth. There is no reason to believe this is the case other than someone's say-so.

Quote:

The language I use is meant to relate to precisely what I mean. This book is "SUPPOSED" to be the truth. No wonder everyone's so fucked up over it.

What's worse is that there are so many possible interpetations of the book that we have a few thousand sects of the Christian faith, most of which insist that all the others have it wrong.

Quote:

Fact is: This is an Atheist site isn't it? You're in America aren't you? Without the Holy Bible to dispute, you're pretty much out of business.

We've got plenty of other material to tackle, believe me. Drop by the "Science and Skepticism" area.

Quote:

As for the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon etc. etc.....
You wouldn't have enough opposition in America to get enough members to support this site. Let's be realistic shall we?

What has the first sentence got to do with the next?

Amaleq13 · 06-22-2005, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True American

Are you saying that because there is no factual evidence that these entities do exist that you simply don't believe in them?

Yes, though I would word it differently:

Since there is no reliable evidence that these three characters from the Bible (Noah, Moses, Jesus) actually existed as described, I do not find the stories about them to be credible as history.

Quote:

I at least I have a belief they existed because they were mentioned extensively in a book that is supposed to be the honest truth.

You hold this belief despite the fact that you think "most of it is hogwash"? That doesn't seem rational to me and suggests I am correct that your belief in the existence of these characters is a matter of faith rather than reason.

Quote:

You're entire existence here is based on bashing the Holy Bible.

I don't consider critically examining the Bible as any other ancient texts to constitute "bashing". That is the sort of rhetoric typical of those with a strong faith in the special nature of the Bible as opposed to folks who genuinely consider it to be mostly "hogwash".

Ronin · 06-22-2005, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True American

Well here's the base of this whole discussion isn't it?
I certainly haven't given you any crap for your NON-belief in it.
Be my guest!

I simply say I believe that Moses, Jesus & Noah existed. This makes about the 30th time I've said this. If you don't believe they did... Goody two shoes for you.
As for the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon etc. etc.....
You wouldn't have enough opposition in America to get enough members to support this site. Let's be realistic shall we?

You're entire existence here is based on bashing the Holy Bible. I have only been talking about the Bible for two days and prior to this, I haven't spoken of it in 40 years. You all do it 20 times a day every day.

So, go on bashing it. I've said about all there is to say on this matter.
We appear, as I suspected we would be, at a stalemate.

I'll be more than happy to see you all again in a thread which suits my liking far better. Like Politics. There, we can have some better arguments.

Suits me, but, for the record I was not "bashing" Christianity when you interjected your own religious views within the original thread from which this one sprung.

I was merely pointing out that the Christian mythos is on equal footing with other historical unfalsifiable mythic archetypes to include those of a plainly supernatural slant.

You have presented nothing from which one can discern that there is any difference at all.

See you in Politics then.

:wave:

Sven · 06-23-2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Atheist must mean one is non a believer of any heavenly being. Agnostic means they question the existence of GOD. <(yes, I used upper case... sue me.)

No, with respect to Jesus, I rather fall into this category of the definitions in your post: "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable" - just replace 'any ultimate reality' with 'existence of Jesus'

Quote:

I actually fall into both of these categories... or maybe I don't. I'm not sure. I believe there is Something out there watching over me. I question the existence of the God of Abraham, The God of Jesus and the God of the Muslims. But, there's something. If not, I would have been dead by now ten times over.

Most people underestimate the power of coincidence and statistics.

Quote:

As for the existence of these three entities, I would only say... I believe they existed. Is there something wrong with the translation on this thread? It's written in plain English. I believe they EXISTED. Nothing more.

Fine. Did I argue against this anywhere?
Hint: Calling them "myth" does not argue against their existence.

And if there's really something wrong with the translation, it could very well be a problem on my side, since I'm not a native speaker. If this is the case, I apologize in advance.

Sven · 06-23-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by True American

So to this I have to ask...
Are you saying that because there is no factual evidence that these entities do exist that you simply don't believe in them?

Right.

Quote:

I at least I have a belief they existed because they were mentioned extensively in a book that is supposed to be the honest truth.

Yeah, right, "supposed to be". But since so much in the bible was already proven wrong, there's no longer a reason to believe any claim within it a priori.

Quote:

So, assuming the Bible is the absolute truth it claims to be, Moses, Jesus & Noah have been factually documented. Being that I really couldn't care less whether they existed or not isn't the issue. I believe they had to have at least existed to create this much of a fuss in a book that is not only called "The Good Book," [...]

[nitpick]There's not much "fuss" about Noah - his account is only about four chapters[/nitpick]

Godless Dave · 06-23-2005, 04:29 AM

I saw a movie in 1978 about spaceships that flew all over North America before landing at Devil's Tower, Wyoming, where they picked up several humans and took them off into space. It's a fact.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-23-2005, 04:29 AM	#70
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	I saw a movie in 1978 about spaceships that flew all over North America before landing at Devil's Tower, Wyoming, where they picked up several humans and took them off into space. It's a fact.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.