mikem

I'm not aware of this question being posed before, but if it has I apologise. Anyway, in several places in letters generally considered to be from his hand, Paul makes reference to the crucifixion of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:23 - "we preach Christ crucified"
2:2 - "I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucifed."
2:8 "None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory".

There are also reference in 2 Corinthians 13:4, Glatians 2:20, 3:1.

I think that 1 Corinthians 2;2 is telling because on a historicist view it would explain why Paul says so little about the rest of Jesus life. For him, the crucifixion was the be all and the end all. We know that there were other methods of execution beside crucifixion, but that crucifixion was a particular favourite of the Romans, although it was not unknown elsewhere. Maybe it's habit, but when I read these passages, they seem to be referring to a very earthly form of execution.

On a mythicist view, are we to assume that crucifixion is also a sublunary procedure? I would have though that an Aslan style slaughtering would have been more the order of the day among the sublunary powers.

So I put the argument that Paul was refering to historical Jesus, and not a sublunary one, on the basis that this makes more sense of the language of crucifixion. (I have a feeling that I'm going to regret this!)

Toto

It depends on how you interpret "the rulers of this age." If you think that refers to the demons who control the world, it is compatible with a sublunar crucifixion.

mikem

But why CRUCIFIXION? Paul would have been familiar with crucifixion as a Roman form of execution, nothing more. There are three views on the rulers of this age 1. human rulers, 2. demonic powers, 3. human rulers as the agents of demonic powers. Since it is the meaning of this phrase that seems to be ambiguous, and crucifixion which has the clearer meaning, it makes more sense to interpret rulers of this age in terms of crucifixion, rather than crucifixion in terms of a disputed interpretation of rulers, as Doherty does.

Hallandale

I still haven't figured out exactly what you are trying to say.
I looked "sublunary" up in my dictionary and Webster's says "relating to, or characteristic of the terrestrial world"
So I think that you are saying that Paul was writing about a historical Jesus and not about a terrestrial Jesus because of the language Paul uses in writing about the crucifixion.
I hope I don't confuse you if I say that in my opinion, the historical Jesus was a terrestrial Jesus, but Paul was writing about a cosmic Jesus.
"cosmic" [Webster's] ""relating to the cosmos, the extraterrestrial vastness, or the universe in contrast to the earth alone.""
Nick Hallandale

Amaleq13

What suggests to you that he would have had only a superficial familiarity?

The Jews were quite familiar with this mode of execution since, according to Josephus, hundreds if not thousands of Jews had been crucified in the preceding centuries. It was one of if not the most terrifying and humiliating deaths possible but especially for a Jew if only because of the typical fate of the body (ie mass grave or left to rot on the cross).

Toto

For us, the meaning of the phrase "rulers of this age" is ambiguous, but it might have been perfectly clear to Paul and his audience, while crucifixion may also have had some symbolic or mythic meaning. (There is the phrase "to take up his cross" which seems to have some meaning independent of crucifixion.)

Toto

This refers to Early Doherty's thesis spelled out in The Jesus Puzzle ( www.jesuspuzzle.com )

TedM

Paul's silence about this so-called upper realm in which things happened that normally happen on earth is IMO one of the greatest failings of Doherty's theory. If the "rulers of this age" were clearly referring to demons it would help, but it isn't. While Paul associates Jesus' death with the cross at least 12 times, and refers to Jesus' suffering and death nearly 60 times (see http://mypeoplepc.com/members/tedrik...op20/id24.html for citations) , never once does he refer to this as happening somewhere other than on earth, as one would expect. Paul never writes about 'the great battle in the skies', or a descent 'to the air' or some such nonsense. The most reasonable interpretation is that Jesus died via crucifixion on earth.

ted

jgibson000

One problem with this view is that, as A. W. Carr has noted ("The Rulers of This Age -- I Corinthians ii.6-8 9" [NTS 23 (1976-77) 20-35]), in the 16 other occurences in the NT of hOI ARCONTES the term **always** refers to earthly rulers and that it only has a supernatural domension when it occurs in the singular.

Another is that elsewhere (1 Thess. 2:14-15) Paul plainly asserts that humans were responsible for Jesus' crucifixion.

A third is that, as Julius Schniewind has shown (Nachgelassene Reden und Aufsdtze [Berlin: A. Topelmann, 1952] 104-9], the context of 1 Cor 2:7-8 makes clear that the ARCONTES spoken of there are human rulers. Before he gets to 2:6-8, Paul has already spoken of the "wise person" (SOFOS), the "scribe" (GRAMMATEUS) (1:20), the "powerful" (DUNATOI), and the "well-born" (EUGENEIS) (1:26), whom God is bringing to nothing (1:28). These are the "powers" of this age (TOUS AIWNOS, 1:20), and they are all human.

Furthermore, the wisdom of this age in 2:6 is the same as that in 1:20. And there it is humanity, symbolized by the term "the world," which opposes God, not demonic forces (1:26, 27, 28). Moreover. it is human wisdom that prevents knowledge of God (2:5, 13), not heavenly powers

Furthermore, the antithesis in I Corinthians 1-2 is not between saved humans and lost angels but between two groups of humans. The structure is "we-they":

Our glorification (2:7) vs. Rulers of this age (2:6)

Those who love him (2:9) vs. Those who crucified the Lord of glory (2:8)

The Spirit of God (2:12) vs. The spirit of the world (2:12)

The spiritual person (2:15) vs. The unspiritual person (2:14)

So there are good reasons for doubting that ARCONTES in 1 Cor 2:6-8 are "demons".

But even should ARCONTES here mean "transcendent figures"/"demonic powers", it begs the question to say, as such claims as "is compatible with a sub-lunar crucifixion" seem to do, that such an assertion not only rules out the earth as the place where the crucifixion took place but also any view on Paul's part of a human hand in the crucifixion-- and not only because a "sub-lunar crucifixion" is an absurdity (how can something non material be crucified?); but because there is never an instance in antiquity of the use of either ARXON or ARCONTES as a reference to supernatural forces in action that sees or portrays them as ever acting and carrying out their designs except in and through human agency.

But if you know of any, I'd be glad to see them.

Jeffrey

TedM

Nice. 1 Thess 2:14-15 is widely regarded by folks here as an interpolation, but other than that, your comments make a lot of sense. The context is clearly talking about human wisdom vs God's wisdom. Paul also mentions the archons one other time, clearly referring to human rulers.

ted