Sauron

Do I hear the sound of crickets?

chirp chirp, chirp chirp.....

mdd344

Sauron,
You do (hear crickets chirping) if you keep using silence as your foundation for belief that all this lack of 'findings' prove the Bible is erroneous. I really would have thought you would not have gone down that road, given your desire to be logical and back up what you claim with evidence.

From " http://www.equip.org/free/DA111.htm "
The author is Dr. Paul Maier
Originally published in the Christian Research Journal, volume 27, number 2 (2004).

Kosh

I don't know. But man, I spend half a day away doing contruction at our new homesite, and this thread expands by another SIX PAGES?

I'd say this qualifies as a pile on!

"Buck-buck #15, coming up!"

cjack

You're kidding, right?

Egypt is one of the most excavated places on the planet. Over the last 150 years or so, I think you could make the argument that no other ancient culture has had their remains more closely examined than Egypt.

We know some of the most intimate details of that culture across a fairly vast stretch of history...everything from what gods they worshipped down to what their women used in their eyeliner.

And yet despite all that, there is not a shred of evidence for the events described in Exodus.

In this particular case, an argument from silence stands up pretty well, because we know a great deal about that particular period in that particular area, and the silence, if you will, is deafening.

And yes, sometimes "because something hasn't been found yet" can indeed mean it doesn't exist. Here's an example:

One of the first people to seriously study the planet Mars through a telescope was a man named Percival Lowell. He was well-educated (Harvard), well-traveled, and by all accounts a brilliant man. He was fascinated by the "canals" on Mars seen by the Italian astronomer Shiaparelli. He spent years studying these "canals" at his observatory in Flagstaff, and even wrote three books on the planet, the canals, and the possibility of life on that planet.

However, the "canals" that Lowell saw, mapped, and wrote extensively about do not exist. They were just a trick of the light. We know this because we've done a fairly extensive survey of Mars. We've orbited the planet, landed on it, and even done a little prospecting...albeit remotely.

In all our explorations, we've not seen a single sign of Lowell's canals, nor anything like the creatures he imagined to have built them. It isn't that they haven't been found yet. They simply don't exist.

How would Lowell have viewed that discovery? I imagine that he would be astounded by our ability to actually travel the incredible distance to Mars. I'm fairly certain he would be amazed by the amount of information we've gathered, and deeply moved by the breathtaking pictures we've taken on the surface. And since he was a scientist, I'm sure he would have been at first devastated by the discovery that his beloved canals didn't exist, then grudgingly resigned to the fact that he was wrong, then finally amazed once again by the true nature of Mars.


On the other hand, had Lowell been as religious and obstinate as you, I suspect he'd have gone to his grave insisting that the canals existed, the Martians built them, and the "argument from silence" was simply not valid in any case, ever.

Your problem, mdd, is that you flatly refuse to entertain even the slightest possibility that you may be dead wrong. This is what most people would call arrogance, and near as I can figure, it's the only thing that can explain your continued participation here at IIDB.

mdd344

hatsoff,
Dan. 7:17 is referring to four beasts. Dan. 7:13-14 is only a part of the vision.

What makes you think Dan. 2 concerns a fictional kingdom? And it was 29 A.D., not 40's A.D.

Do you think that all of the vision is fictional? I don't think even liberal scholars believe that. They usually agree on the first two, and disagree on the last two.

mdd344

Kosh,
What is "buck buck" from? I remember it but can't put my finger on it.

Sauron

No. As usual, your inexperience with term "argument from silence" continues to trip you up.

1. The bible makes an affirmative claim: "The Hebrews were in Egypt." When someone (or some group, or organization) makes an affirmative claim, it's up to that group to provide proof.

2. All I have done is point out the *absence* of any affirmative evidence to back up that claim. The statement I made "there is zero evidence to support the claim of Hebrews in Egypt" is true. And I've also commented that this is a problem for the bible.

3. If you claim that your house burned down by fire, but there's no evidence of fire - no burnt wood, no smoke, no nothing - then it's not an argument from silence. I merely state the obvious: your story about the house fire is not supported.

Allegedly 2.5 million people and zero evidence for their existence? Not like this, no.

I'm afraid it is. And considering how poor your debate skills are, you are the *last* person in the world to be telling someone else what is a valid argument.

Kosh

A pile on game from Bill Cosby's childhood.

"Fat Albert" always batted cleanup.

hatsoff

There will always be extremist views on either side of a hot topic, but that doesn't mean that *everything* they claim is in error. A lot of what that article pointed out is indeed held as true, and rightfully so. For example, it appears there really was no such person as Abraham. I wouldn't go so far as to deny the existence of David, however, or Solomon.

hatsoff

Right. And the symbolism, we are told, is based on four "kingdoms." It's very clear:
The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth (Da 7:17)
It doesn't get much more obvious than that.

Because it seems like the author was trying to make predictions that he could not possibly make. It is possible, however, that he was instead referring to Greece. We really can't say for sure.

Possible but highly doubtful. It seems more likely that Christianity arose in the 40s, with Peter and Paul.

Of course the vision is fictional. The whole story is mythical. You can tell from all the supernatural claims.