spin

1. In the gospel of John, what is the name of Jesus's mother?
2. What is the name of her sister?

(Hope this isn't reinventing the doorstop. If so, add boos below. )


spin






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(52:91 nJ) yraM .2 onnuD .1 :srewsnA
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JoeWallack

JW:
Christianity should have let you have The Table.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

nickpecoraro

John 19:25 (King James Version)

25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.


It would appear that Mary had a sister named Mary.

I have always thought this was strange, but it doesn't seem to bother Christians.

I always wondered if the man and his son who met Jesus on the road to Emmaus after the supposed resurrection, were his uncle and his cousin.

Luke 24:18 (King James Version)

18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?


Nick Pecoraro

nickpecoraro

What Were They Hiding From Their Readers?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Were They Hiding From Their Readers?

At the crucifiction of Jesus, there were women watching by the cross.

According to the Gospel according to John, Jesus’ mother Mary, was one of the women.


Quote:
John 19:25 (King James Version)
25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

I find it very enigmatic, that according to the Gospel according to Matthew, in describing the same incident, it does not say that Jesus’ mother was at the cross. But it does mention a “”Mary the mother of James and Joses.””


Quote:
Matthew 27:55-56 (King James Version)
55And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

In a similar manner, the Gospel according to Mark, doesn’t mention Jesus’ mother but mentions a “”Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses.””


Quote:
Mark 15:40-41 (King James Version)
40There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
41(Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.

So who is Mary, mother of James the Less, and Joses? And why didn’t the Gospels according to Mark and Matthew, mention Jesus’ mother as did the Gospel according to John?

Jesus’ mother, Mary, had sons named James and Joses.


Quote:
Matthew 13:55 (King James Version)
55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, James the Less, was ……..


Quote:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm

Traditions respecting James the Less are to be found in many extra-canonical documents, especially Josephus (Antiq., XX, ix, 1), the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (St. Jerome, De vir. ill., II), Hegesippus (Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", II, xxiii), the pseudo-Clementine Homilies (Ep. of Peter) and Recognitions (I, 72, 73), Clement of Alexandria (Hypot., vi, quoted by Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", II, i). The universal testimony of Christian antiquity is entirely in accordance with the information derived from the canonical books as to the fact that James was Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem. Hegesippus, a Jewish Christian, who lived about the middle of the second century, relates (and his narrative is highly probable) that James was called the "Just", that he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor ate animal food, that no razor touched his head, that he did not anoint himself or make use of the bath, and lastly that he was put to death by the Jews. The account of his death given by Josephus is somewhat different. Later traditions deserve less attention.

We know that the Catholics are reluctant to say that James is Jesus’ brother, but we know from this description, that James the Less was Jesus’ brother and their mother was Mary.

So it is evident that in the Gospels according to Matthew and Mark, Jesus mother Mary was at the cross, but she is not identified as Jesus’ mother, but only as Mary the mother of James and Joses.

WHAT WERE THEY HIDING BY NOT IDENTIFYING JESUS’ MOTHER, MARY?

But look here………


Quote:
Mark 16:1 (King James Version)
1And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Here Jesus’ mother is only identified as ,Mary the mother of James.

But look at the Gospel according to Matthew………


Quote:
Matthew 28:1 (King James Version)
1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Here Jesus’ mother is only identified as “”the other Mary .””
What a demotion for Jesus’ mother. But in each case, Mary Magdalene , is identified with her first and last names. It would appear that Mary Magdalene was given star treatment, while the identity of Jesus’ mother was hidden. Why?

What Were They Hiding From Their Readers?

Questions like this raise serious doubts about the whole Resurrection story.

Stuart Shepherd

JoeWallack

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=John_19

http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Jo...er=19&verse=25

ἡ---μήτηρ----αὐτοῦ
the-mother---of him

καὶ---ἡ----ἀδελφὴ--τῆς-----μητρὸς--αὐτοῦ
and-the---sister----of-the--mother--of him

Μαρία--ἡ----τοῦ--Κλωπᾶ
Mary---the--of---Clopas

καὶ--Μαρία-ἡ----Μαγδαληνή
and-Mary--the--Magdalene

JW:
Huh, I think you are right Spin. I've never seen this claimed as an error in Polemics because normally if there is ambiguity an error is not claimed.

Brown writes:

"The thesis that three women are involved would mean that we read: "his mother, and his mother's sister (Mary of Cleopas), and Mary Magdalene." Although grammatically this is possible, there is some unlikelihood that Mary, Jesus' mother, would have a sister, also named Mary. The Syriac Peshitta and Tatian definitely think of four women, for they insert "and" between the second and third designation." Even without this clarification, the sentence structure would seem to favor four women: "A and B, C and D."

Not one of Brown's finer moments. Three women is not just grammatically possible, it is preferable. The lack of the conjunctive καὶ (and) before "Mary the of Clopas" indicates it is a description of the previous woman and not a new woman. We thus have three women described as separated by the conjunction:

1) the mother of him

2) and the sister of the mother of him Mary the of Clopas

3) and Mary the Magdalene

That Tatian and Peshitta added an "and" after "the sister of the mother of him" does not support four women because this was their understanding of "John" but supports three women because they understood "John" as referring to three women and that's why they changed it.

As far as external support for the number of women here, Brown's reasoning is also backwards. "John" is clearly intended as a stand alone Gospel that is not limited to Synoptic assertians such as:

1) Peter was the most important witness ("Matthew", "Luke").

2) Jesus was close to 30 when he died ("Luke").

3) Faith comes before miracles ("Mark").

It should not be a problem for the objective student that "John" also denied/did not support that Jesus' mother was named "Mary" by calling Jesus' mother's sister's name "Mary". "John" never says Jesus' mother was Mary.

On to my inventory of errors at ErrancyWiki! http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=John_19:25

What else ya got Spin?

Point Doherty! Score, Doherty 40, HJ Love (one another).



Joseph

"He who denies that "John's" Jesus is denying "Mark's" Jesus is the liar." - JW

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

nickpecoraro

Matthew 27:56 (King James Version)

56Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Matthew only has three women.

Mark 15:40 (King James Version)

40There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Mark only has three women.

Quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Quote:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm

Traditions respecting James the Less are to be found in many extra-canonical documents, especially Josephus (Antiq., XX, ix, 1), the "Gospel according to the Hebrews" (St. Jerome, De vir. ill., II), Hegesippus (Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", II, xxiii), the pseudo-Clementine Homilies (Ep. of Peter) and Recognitions (I, 72, 73), Clement of Alexandria (Hypot., vi, quoted by Eusebius, "Hist. eccl.", II, i). The universal testimony of Christian antiquity is entirely in accordance with the information derived from the canonical books as to the fact that James was Bishop of the Church of Jerusalem. Hegesippus, a Jewish Christian, who lived about the middle of the second century, relates (and his narrative is highly probable) that James was called the "Just", that he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor ate animal food, that no razor touched his head, that he did not anoint himself or make use of the bath, and lastly that he was put to death by the Jews. The account of his death given by Josephus is somewhat different. Later traditions deserve less attention.

We know that the Catholics are reluctant to say that James is Jesus’ brother, but we know from this description, that James the Less was Jesus’ brother and their mother was Mary.

So it is evident that in the Gospels according to Matthew and Mark, Jesus mother Mary was at the cross, but she is not identified as Jesus’ mother, but only as Mary the mother of James and Joses.




Nick Pecoraro

the_cave

Is there a good reason why we shouldn't read the whole second "kai" phrase as an apposative for the whole first "kai" phrase?

IOW:

"his mother, and his mother's sister, that is:

Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene"

Yes, this would create the unlikelihood (but not impossibility) of two sisters named Mary. But is it impossible that this is John's intention? Note that for these purposes, this is a literary question, not a historical one.

If there is a good reason why we shouldn't read it this way, the next question is, if the gospel of Mark was written first, then shouldn't Mark 6:3 tell the author of John that Jesus' mother was named Mary? So wouldn't John be talking about two sisters named Mary no matter what?

But if he wasn't, then why is the author of John unaware of Mark 6:3?

rlogan

Well yes, the resurrection story was pretty scientifically bulletproof before this literary inconsistency was pointed out.

You'd have to believe it verbatim otherwise.

JoeWallack

JW:
The following is more support (nebulous) that Mary's sister was Mary. Er, sorry. Let me start over. More support (nebulous) that Jesus' mother's sister was Mary:

http://www.monachos.net/content/patr...ts#ftnlink1_31

JW:
More damning (but nebulous) support that Mary's sister was Mary and that every woman at the crucifixion was named Mary. Now if we could only figure out who said this...

No doubt Bauckham will/has claimed that because every women at the scene of the crime was named Mary this proves that they were known to the community, the author, the Church and Sister Emmerich and provided eyewitness testimony so there was no reason to identify them or the Gospel.

Reminds one of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDTLUJ66o0o



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

Hammer Time!

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=John_19

JW:
My guess is that "John's" source for "Mary the [wife] of Clopas" here is:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Luke_24



Joseph

"He who denies that "John's" Jesus is denying "Mark's" Jesus is the liar." - JW

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page