Godfather

I have recently shed my hardcore fundamentalist beliefs, and lot of my friends are avidly trying to pull me back in. I have spent a great deal of time and effort studying as much information as possible so when my friends ask me lame questions I can give them an answer. I argued down a friend and he left me with a statement I could not answer to. How relevant this issue is I am not entirely sure but here goes. He said to me "There is no other religion where God would send His son to die for us." He then goes on to tell me that is his only reason for staying with Christianity, despite what critics say about the Bible, history, etc.


My question is this: Is he just ignorant or does he know what he is talking about? Are there other religions, ancient or other, that follow a similar pattern of Christianity with God sending his only son to earth to save humanity? Any help would be much appreciated.

Hobbs

Whether that is a unique point about Christianity doesn't really matter. The question is whether it is relevant or whether it makes Christianity worth listening to or taking seriously. Suppose someone showed you an example of another religion that says God sent his son to save humanity, or examples of gods or sons of gods dying and resurrecting. Then you could just say, yeah but only in Christianity did God's son die on a cross outside of Jerusalem! You can always find something unique about any religion. The question is whether it is a relevant point.

As for Jesus dying for our sins, the claim is that God will only accept death as payment for sins, but he doesn't really care whose death it is. God is accepting a substitute in a capital punishment case. Would any of these Christians you are talking with actually really accept such a thing in real life? Suppose someone committed a murder, and then demonstrated real remorse and anguish at having done such a terrible deed by turning himself in and accepting the legally assigned punishment of death. So the judge sentences him to die. Then suppose the murderer's mother, who is completely innocent of the crime, says that she is willing to take her son's penalty for him and offers to the judge to be executed in her son's place. If you were the judge, would you accept her offer? If a judge accepted her offer, would you think that justice had been done? If you are sure enough that the guy is truly repentant and knows and feels what he did was horribly wrong and is devoting himself to good causes and trying to bring about as much good as he can to try to make amends for his wrongdoing, wouldn't it be far better just to show mercy and forgive him for the murder? Do you really think that you would have to fry his mom before you could forgive him and drop the charges?

The Jesus substitutionary death tale is not just a miscarriage of justice; it is nothing but blind revenge: God doesn't care who dies, just so somebody does. It's just too ridiculous to contemplate the claim that a good and just God would ever accept, much less arrange, this hideous miscarriage of justice.

But suppose this story of the Jesus sacrifice really is true after all. What could we conclude from that but that God is not good, rather he is evil and worthy of our rebellion rather than our worship?

KnightWhoSaysNi

Hi GF,

You might find this story interesting:

From Missionary Bible Translator to Agnostic

It was one of the most interesting personal stories of a person changing from one worldview to another that I've ever read. He goes into significant detail with his thoughts and feelings as he moved from Christian fundamentalism to a rationalist agnosticism. I'd encourage your friend to read it and see what he thinks.

As for your friend's comments, I don't know if there are any other religions that profess that it's deity sent its son to die to save humanity. Perhaps there's some Hinduistic or pagan religion somewhere where the deity sacrifices an avatar or something. But regardless, if a religion is "unique" from others then it doesn't necessarily follow that the religion is true. It's like saying, "...because Rastafarianism is the only religion that ritualizes marijuana smoking, it is the only religion that's true."

Jason

Godfather

I appreciate your help. Some of the people I used to associate myself with are so ignorant it makes me sick. They care nothing about studying what they believe or looking at another point of view. The rumors circulating my church hold that I am now the Satanic high priest of Florida. Maybe that is a little exaggerated, but one thing baptists can do well is spread some really exaggerated rumors.

Your reply was very thought provoking. Even if God did send his son, was it the right choice? Does is make christianity true? Most certainly not. The only reply I can expect from my fundamentalist friends is "God does what he wants, so don't question him."

Hobbs

In other words, "might makes right." They are moral nihilists.

Chili

. . . but God did not send his son to die for you. The only person that died was Jesus the Jew and not Jesus the son of God (son of man) who was set free by the name of Bar-abbas to let Jesus the Jew die.

Ask yourself why Christianity is the only religion wherein we have to physically die before 'anything' good can happen to us? In all other religions-- including Catholicism-- at least some of its members are able to enjoy heaven (or its equivalent) while we are alive on this earth.

Let me say that Christian-ity is the condition of being Christian and therefore the end of religion which is to serve us as a means to the end and no more. From this point is it even absurd to call yourself a Christian and belong to a religion.

Xrikcus

Sorry, how is Catholicism not a form of Christianity? Unless I misread your post, of course...

Chili

No you didn't misread my post. There are many ways to prove this but first let me point out Catholics are not Christians in that they are known to be sinners and have the confessionals to prove this. Accordingly, they must proclaim each and every Sunday that they are not worthy to receive the body of Christ ("Lord I am not worthy to receive but only speak the word and I shall be healed") and this would include all Catholics . . . but exclude those who have been made worthy and are now called Christian instead of Catholic.

This idea is much like Jesus who was a Jew but was no longer a Jew when he became Christ[ian]. In fact it was his own religion that betrayed him (Judas is Judaism) and therefore was annihilated in more than one way (hint). This same is true in Catholicism where our own religion must first betray us ("belief and repent" instead of repent and belief = they are the pharisees and we are determined to "upset their temple" in our anger) and later provide the tribune that will mortify us (it's a real life drama that they play very well).

In this sense does Catholicism end when we become "son of man" and will no longer have a "place to lie our head." In Catholic terms this is when our puragation period begins which is what they call Purgatory (obviously there are no churches in Purgatory).

A shortcut here would be to ask any Baptist if Catholics are Christians.

DramaQ

In other words, you’re wasting your time trying to find “evidence� (or lack thereof) for their statement. Even if you showed them a dozen religions with sacrificial god-sons. They’re not interested in the fact. So why bother showing them any?

And now, at the risk of assisting the slip off-subject…


Interesting “proof�, Chili. Though I am not sure exactly how or why it proves ANYTHING. You know, if you’re gonna claim such-and-such a group is “not Christian� oughtn’t you start with a good, universally accepted definition of what a being a “Christian� is? And good luck with that! I betcha if you put 10 people who call themselves Christian into a room and asked them what a “Christian� is you’d get 10 different answers. LOL. Seems to me it’s pretty bold for someone to believe they have the one true meaning and are able to blithely to tell groups which of them do and don’t qualify.

Meaning what? We have to automatically accept the Baptist’s definition over the Catholics? Does it count if the Catholics claim the Baptists aren’t Christians? In fact, your statement is exactly what I said. There are a plethora of meanings of “Christian�. Who gets to decide which one is “right�?

How about let’s make it simple: “A Christian is someone who CALLS themselves one�. Let the individuals sort out what it means to them.


Now, back to Godfather: what say we use this colorful statement by Chili to get back on track? I’m sure Chili won’t mind my taking it out of context.

The fact is that all you REALLY know is that your religious leaders and teachers have always TOLD you Jesus died for you. They’ve TOLD you that Jesus was God’s son. They’ve TOLD you that his death somehow absolved us from sin. (Even though we go on sinning and go on needing “repentance�. But go figya.)

Because they claim that this makes Christianity unique and therefore somehow “true� is really only relevant if you’re willing to accept and believe ANY of it. What DIFFERENCE does it make how many unique claims they make about their religion? They could tell you it’s the only religion whose founder used a laser gun if they wanted to add a touch of uniqueness. That doesn’t endow it with “truth�.

Truth is what can be substantiated. Faith revels in the lack of substantiation. Continue to seek the truth on your own and leave the faithful to their faith.

Chili

Good point but I made it clear that my kind of Christian cannot belong to a group because "son of man has no place to lie his head." In Catholicism this means that religion ends when we enter Purgatory and from there go to heaven which in its turn ends when we physically die [our second death].No, but the Baptists (for example only) claim that we must have a special relationship with Jesus and they know by experience that Catholics do not have this because they can always 'do' a Catholic to give him that special feeling. Yes we can call ourselves Christian but, as I suggest, if heaven is a place on earth that is reserved for Christians only I wonder how many people would still claim to be Christian.[/QUOTE]