Layman

It's been a few years, but I seem to recall Gumbel laying out the three kind of views Christians have 1) literal flaming hell, 2) unspecified separation from God, and 3) annhilationism. I'll have to see if I still have the book laying around to remember how he discussed it.

Doctor X

It is around them if they but look.

--J.D.

Simiangrunt

Interesting. I'm actually not familiar with options (2) and (3). Unless (3) has something to do with the apocalypse.

Layman

2 is the belief that the language of hell in the New Testament is largely figurative. A place of flames but also of darkness. Many Christians, and a lot hold to this idea, say we do not know what hell is like except that it is a place of permanent separate from God. C.S. Lewis is perhaps the most well-known proponent of the idea. His book The Great Divorce is an interesting take on hell.

3 also has a number of proponents. Well-known evangelical Bible scholar F.F. Bruce adopted this position. It holds that after judgment the unsaved are annhilated. Their spirits as well as their souls. Nothing survives. No eternal suffering other than nonexistence.

There is actually a fourth, what we could call the Catholic perspective. Hell is bad, but somewhat proportional to your sins. Purgatory offers a second or third chance for many of the unsaved. I can't remember if Gumbel went into it but doubt it.

There is a book out there call Four Views of Hell that articulates each theory.

Naked Ape

In my experience of that most horrid of courses, Nicki goes on about how he was truly searching and decided to check out all the big players is the eternal answers game, he was planning to read the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Bible. However, the Bible was the only one of those books that he had just lying around, so he started with that one and being convinced of THE TRUTHTM of the Bible, he decided he really did not have to investigate the other holy books after all. (If only someone had given him a Koran for christmas!).

The old "We have older copies of some the books of the bible than we have of Julius Caesar's 'Gallic Wars' or Homer's 'Iliad', therefore you should believe uncriticaly anything that you find in the bible." sawhorse is trotted out. I mentioned that no-one has been systematicly tortured to death for suggesting that the Iliad is fiction. This was countered by the "well that's all the time we have for that discussion this week." defense.

Nicky is also inordinatly fond of the false dichotomy "Lord, Liar or Lunatic", aguing that jebus had to be one of the above. (only one? how about two out of three, anyone?)

This course attempts to capitalise on the previous indictrination of it's subjects. I think most "converts" here are not people who have never been churched, but rather folks who are currently non-churchgoers but once were forced to go to sunday school as kids (the latently indictrinated). The alpha course seems like preaching to the choir. I don't imagine that they convert anyone who is not a christian because they have actually thought about it, but they meet with some success with those who simply stopped going to church out of sheer apathy.

The methodology of the alpha course condensed:
1) Gloss over your assertions that there is no good reason for anyone to not believe the bible in 20 minutes on the first day.
2) The remainder of the weeks of the course you merely reference the bible and politely state that the first class was the appropriate arena to discuss the bible's validity (should anyone take issue with a bible Quote in the following weeks).

Cheers,

Naked Ape

Paradox

I'm no longer a Christian, but the Alpha course was something that I was very involved in when I did believe.
I did 5 of them as a table leader, helping the discussion to flow and answer the various questions that were put forward. I also went on to create our own "Beta course" which we designed specifically for people who went through the Alpha but still had questions. I've seen at least 6 people become Christians through this and all of them through careful consideration of what was put before them.

I'd have to say that in most cases, I believe it wasn't answering theological questions that converted people, but simply getting to know the people who claimed to be Christian. many of the Christians (including myself) would come across so enthusiatically about their faith and how it had changed their lives that they committed themselves too.

That, I think, is why the Alpha course has enjoyed success - because it invests time in getting to know the people and is not just a question and answer session.

As for the "mad, bad or God" argument. I've always thought it to be quite lame. That statement is fine, but it ignores the notion that what was written about Jesus may not be accurate.
What about Sherlock Holmes? He made a few claims about himself as you read through stories about him and his character is very well defined. Trouble is... he is well known to be a fictional character.

tommorris

Here's what I know about the Alpha course:

It was started in the seventies at Holy Trinity Brompton - the closest thing that London has to a megachurch - a big, evangelical, middle class, young professional, white church in Brompton near Kensington, one of the richest residential parts of London. It's the quintessential "yuppie" church.

It's now on offer in virtually every village. One church in my village offers it. Most of the nearby villages offer it., some in two or three different churches. Often they are offered offsite - in a hall, or house, or primarily secular building or area. Hosting them in the church is a rarity.

The courses last for ten weeks, and in the last week, you are invited to go on a weekend residential retreat for a programme on the "Holy Spirit". At this weekend, there have been reports of all sorts of things like speaking in tongues, divine possession and some very funny events with a pig.

They are run to be very mellow. They are also very light on philosophy or complex theology.

I know one person who has been kicked off two Alpha courses in the second week due to asking too many difficult questions. I know of one quite liberal Baptist minister who explained to me how he thought their theology was highly selective and illogical.

I also know the principle of secularism was frequently ignored when they used to advertise Alpha quite heavily in my old school.

I heard two people from Alpha talk recently trying to argue that Christianity was rational. Their presentation consisted solely in calling "witnesses" out from the audience who would then describe how their life was really bad, really down and out, then they "met Jesus" through scripture, turned their life around, sorting out whatever demons were haunting them (family trouble, prison, crime, marriage et al.) and led great lives with the assistance of Jesus Christ. It took what was originally intended to be an intellectual debate over the validity of Christianity and turned it in to a revival tent farce. Sceptics who then challenged were told that unless they took the Alpha course, they weren't being open-minded. Of course, ignoring the fact that if it is open-mindedness that we are lacking, then why are there so many well-qualified writers on sites like II who've got degrees in theology and stunning depths of Biblical knowledge - eg. Robert Price. This really revealed the true ambition of Alpha - it's an emotional course. If it was an intellectual course, then they wouldn't be telling people with degrees in theology and philosophy that they aren't "open-minded".

Which makes it quite justified when I say: if you do decide to go on an Alpha Course, leave your brain at the door. You won't need it. It'll only get you kicked out. Of course, that's a good thing in and of itself. From what I've seen, it would be an honour to get booted out of Alpha.

DarlingSin

I went to Alpha at the suggestion of the vicar who ran the CoE church I attended on the basis I needed a better overview of the whole Christian thing (I took it about ten years ago - I'd converted two or three years earlier as a 15 year old in an otherwise irreligious family).

I then got told off for constantly jumping in with all the bible verses related to what was being discussed (I had a very good memory for text as a teenager, and I'd read a fair chunk of the bible by then).

Of course, I deconverted a few years later after a lot of theological misgivings and six months playing about with Conways Game of Life as part of my CS degree!

Clivedurdle

Do a search on "Alpha Holy Trinity" and you get most of the old threads on this.

Clivedurdle

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