Freethought & Rationalism Archive

neilmarr · 07-06-2007, 12:37 AM

I hope you'll forgive me for asking a question in my very first post here -- feels almost like mailing out a begging letter.

It's my understanding (though I've lost track of my sources) that many of the popular sage words attributed to Christ in the canons are by no means original and can be traced back -- almost word-for-word -- to the recorded sayings of earlier Jewish thinkers.

If anyone could offer any information (directly in the forums or through links or books), I'd be more than grateful.

This is one impressive site, by the way. It will take me some time to catch up on everything archived here, but I'll do my best and hope to offer something constructive to the debate as time goes on.

Best wishes. Neil Marr

Johnny68 · 07-06-2007, 01:04 AM

Can't help with his sayings but this may shed some light on the topic as well hopefully:

Quote:

Some scholars have speculated that many of these features occur in accounts of other "man-gods", and early Christians mayhave adapted them straight from Mithraism, a competing religion in the Roman Empire. The entirely unearthly Mithras was worshipped as the "Good Shepherd", "the Way, the Truth and the Light", and as a redeemer, saviour and Messiah. Mithras was supposed to have been born to a virgin on what is now 25 December, and was visited by shepherds and Magi. He travelled and taught, cast out devils, made miracle cures, held a last supper, was killed, buried in a rock tomb and rose again after three days, at the time of the spring equinox in March (equivalent to the Christian Easter). Mithraism included baptism and Sunday worship, with a Eucharist and sacraments. Yet no one today considers Mithras to be anything other than fictional. Adopting features of Mithraism would have made the beliefs of the early followers of Jesus more attractive to pagans. St Augustine even said that the priests of Mithras worshipped the same God as he did.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/...p?article=1212

neilmarr · 07-06-2007, 01:17 AM

Thanks, Johnny: The similarities between Mithras, Horus, Krishna and a host of other divine figures pre-dating the alleged Christ are legion -- a fascinating line of research. What I was trying to track down, though, were the much lauded sayings of Christ that can actually be traced back to earlier Jewish teachers. Slainte. Neil

Toto · 07-06-2007, 02:06 AM

The information on Mithras above does not sound completely reliable. There are similarities between Mithras and early Christianity, but they are often overstated, and the origins of Christianity are more likely to be from Hellenistic Judaism.

I think you might be thinking of the idea that a number of Jesus' sayings can be traced back to Hellenistic philosophers, in particular the Cynics. This idea was popularized by John Dominic Crossan, and has been opposed by more conservative Christian scholars.

Or you might be thinking of the arguments of Hyam Maccoby, that Jesus' teaching was actually close to that of the Pharisees.

A good place to start is Peter Kirby's Theories of the Historical Jesus.

GakuseiDon · 07-06-2007, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

Thanks, Johnny: The similarities between Mithras, Horus, Krishna and a host of other divine figures pre-dating the alleged Christ are legion -- a fascinating line of research.

Some apologists will tell you that a lot of those similarities are bogus, and that there is no evidence that pagans believed that. Don't believe them! They may even ask you to provide such evidence. But this is ridiculous, since we know that people back them had various beliefs. Not having clear-cut statements should be no reason why we can't assume such beliefs. Justin Martyr famously said, "Well, I can't explain all those similarities between Christianity and you pagans' religions. Jesus ascending to heaven is so obviously just like a man riding a flying horse. Hercules and Jesus were both strong and wandered around the earth. Creepy similarities! How am I going to explain this? I guess I'll just have to say that Satan looked into the future and inspired the pagans to make up stuff."

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

What I was trying to track down, though, were the much lauded sayings of Christ that can actually be traced back to earlier Jewish teachers. Slainte. Neil

Heheh. Jesus using the sayings of Jewish teachers. What a blow to Christianity! Christians say that Christianity is unique: how would those apologists explain that???

P.S. Welcome to the board, neil!

Toto · 07-06-2007, 02:28 AM

G-Don - having a bit of fun with this, are you?

neil - great profile picture! A photo of you, I assume?

neilmarr · 07-06-2007, 02:39 AM

***great profile picture! A photo of you, I assume***

Yep. I'm the one on the right, Toto. Thanks for the greets, chaps. Neil

GakuseiDon · 07-06-2007, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

G-Don - having a bit of fun with this, are you?

Don't know whether to laugh or cry, actually... Just blowing off steam, I guess, after certain chearlish

comments by someone in another thread. I shouldn't have taken it out on poor Neil though. :blush:

neilmarr · 07-06-2007, 05:23 AM

No offence taken, Don. Your comment gave me a wee giggle, too.

Gosh, this site is big. It should come out in hardback so it can be read in bed. Slowly finding my way around, though.

I was introduced to your esteemed company, by the way, by a pal of mine in the US; Seeker. Some of you might recognise his forum name. Good bloke. Almost inimidatingly well versed.

Hoots. Neil

dog-on · 07-06-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

G-Don - having a bit of fun with this, are you?

Don't know whether to laugh or cry, actually... Just blowing off steam, I guess, after certain chearlish

comments by someone in another thread. I shouldn't have taken it out on poor Neil though. :blush:

...and I thought that you finally got it... :devil1:

07-06-2007, 12:37 AM	#1
neilmarr Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Menton-Monaco, France Posts: 12	Jesus Christ Plagiarist I hope you'll forgive me for asking a question in my very first post here -- feels almost like mailing out a begging letter. It's my understanding (though I've lost track of my sources) that many of the popular sage words attributed to Christ in the canons are by no means original and can be traced back -- almost word-for-word -- to the recorded sayings of earlier Jewish thinkers. If anyone could offer any information (directly in the forums or through links or books), I'd be more than grateful. This is one impressive site, by the way. It will take me some time to catch up on everything archived here, but I'll do my best and hope to offer something constructive to the debate as time goes on. Best wishes. Neil Marr

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-06-2007, 01:17 AM	#3
neilmarr Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Menton-Monaco, France Posts: 12	Thanks, Johnny: The similarities between Mithras, Horus, Krishna and a host of other divine figures pre-dating the alleged Christ are legion -- a fascinating line of research. What I was trying to track down, though, were the much lauded sayings of Christ that can actually be traced back to earlier Jewish teachers. Slainte. Neil

07-06-2007, 02:06 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The information on Mithras above does not sound completely reliable. There are similarities between Mithras and early Christianity, but they are often overstated, and the origins of Christianity are more likely to be from Hellenistic Judaism. I think you might be thinking of the idea that a number of Jesus' sayings can be traced back to Hellenistic philosophers, in particular the Cynics. This idea was popularized by John Dominic Crossan, and has been opposed by more conservative Christian scholars. Or you might be thinking of the arguments of Hyam Maccoby, that Jesus' teaching was actually close to that of the Pharisees. A good place to start is Peter Kirby's Theories of the Historical Jesus.

07-06-2007, 02:28 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	G-Don - having a bit of fun with this, are you? neil - great profile picture! A photo of you, I assume?

07-06-2007, 02:39 AM	#7
neilmarr Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Menton-Monaco, France Posts: 12	*great profile picture! A photo of you, I assume* Yep. I'm the one on the right, Toto. Thanks for the greets, chaps. Neil

07-06-2007, 05:23 AM	#9
neilmarr Junior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Menton-Monaco, France Posts: 12	No offence taken, Don. Your comment gave me a wee giggle, too. Gosh, this site is big. It should come out in hardback so it can be read in bed. Slowly finding my way around, though. I was introduced to your esteemed company, by the way, by a pal of mine in the US; Seeker. Some of you might recognise his forum name. Good bloke. Almost inimidatingly well versed. Hoots. Neil

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.