dongiovanni1976x

Did Saul’s daughter Michal ever have any children? (II Sam 6:23) vs. (II Sam 21:8)?

I have heard inerrantists say that II Sam 21:8 mentions the children that Michal brought up as a nanny for her sister Merab. This is if they use the KJV (among others that use the textus receptus). But the NRSV translates the hebrew verb YALAD properly by saying "bore to" etc...but translate 'Miykal' as Merab (thus avoiding a contradiction with II Sam 6:23).

Does anyone know if there are textual differences in the Textus receptus and the Alexandrian (or any others) that literally have Merab in II Samuel, chapter 21 verse 8? All I have is the textus receptus which is as follows:

[(Melek + laqach) (sheayim + ben) ~ [(Ritspah, bath Ayay) + (YALAD->Sha'uwl)] - Armoniy + Mephiyboseth] [(chamesh + ben) ~ [(Miykal, bath Sha'uwl) + (YALAD->`Adriy'el)] ben Barillai Meholathiy]

(the) king took (the) two sons (of) Ritspah, daughter (of) Ayay WHOM SHE BORE TO Saul, Armoniy + Mephiyboseth; (and the) five sons (of) Michal, daughter (of) Saul, WHOM SHE BORE TO Adriel, son (of) Barzillai (the) Meholathite.

If these are the same Hebrew words that the NRSV used then how did the translators translate 'Miykal' as Merab? Plus, anyone know or aware of other usages for the verb YALAD. I have seen it mean "brought up for" -or- "brought up on the knee" but I was curious if this was only used if the verb was in a particular case etc... I must confess, I know absolutely NO HEBREW so I don't even know how these verbs decline- if they do.

Any thoughts?

Grazie! :thumbs:

Anat

The five sons mentioned in II Samuel 21:8 were supposedly sons Michal had borne to Adriel son of Barzilai. AFAIK while David was a fugitive Saul gave Michal to another man, Paltiel son of Laish. The curse in II Samuel 6 was uttered at a later time, after David became king. So Michal could have had children during her years away from David (though the father should have been Paltiel, rather than Adriel). Additionally, one interpretation of II Samuel 6:23 is that Michal died while giving birth to a child fathered by David (IOW the "unto the day of her death" is interpreted non-inclusively).

dongiovanni1976x

Anat, you mention that, “Michal could have had children during her years away from David (though the father should have been Paltiel, rather than Adriel).� But how is that possible if the Bible says she had NO CHILDREN UNTO THE DAY OF HER DEATH. How do you interpret that differently than I do? [Miykal bath Sha’uwl valad yeled yowm maveth (II Sam 6:23)] I don’t think any fundamentalists try to argue a different interpretation of Chapter 6 verse 23; I think they play around with the verb YALAD, and change it to mean, “brought up FOR� (KJV) or they change the noun Michal for Merab and translate YALAD properly (RSV).

“The curse in II Samuel 6 was uttered at a later time, after David became king.� I didn’t read this to be a “curse� as much as just a stated fact that Michal was not allowed to have children because her offspring, regardless of whose they were, could be a threat to David’s Kingdom. Her displeasure of David acting “vulgar� (II Sam 6:20) Seems to just reinforce her contempt for being shut up in David’s house and never being allowed to fulfill her role as a woman- by having children. Do you read this differently?

Also you note, “[O]ne interpretation of II Samuel 6:23 is that Michal died while giving birth to a child fathered by David.� But if this is the case how did she give birth to FIVE sons? All at once?!

The NRSV that I am using says in the middle of verse 8 (Chap 21), “and the five sons of Merab daughter of Saul,� and has a caption below stating why the name Merab was used in this verse which reads, “Two Heb Mss Syr Compare Gk: MT Michal.� What does this mean exactly?
Is this saying that there are two Hebrew Manuscripts found in Syria which differ from the Greek in the Textus Receptus? If so, what are these manuscripts called, when and where were they found; who found them and by what authority do they take precedence over the standard received/Byzantine text?

Crazy Liz

I haven't looked at the Hebrew, but I can tell you for sure this is not a Textus Receptus/Alexandrian text issue, because the TR and Alexandrian family are both Greek texts of the New Testament, and 2 Samuel is and old Testament text.

For Old Testament texts, there are differences in some places between the Masoretic Text (standard Hebrew text) and the Septuagint (aka LXX), a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible made approximately in the second century BCE. The Dead Sea Scrolls have shed additional light on the Hebrew texts. For the first time, some Hebrew manuscripts were found there that agree with the LXX, rather than the MT.

Sorry I can't give you the specific info you want (I'm not an inerrantist, so it's no big deal to me), but maybe this background will help you.

dongiovanni1976x

Thank you Liz.
When I read my strongs concordance and it incorporates Hebrew from the OT and Greek from the NT; am I getting this from a combination of the Masoretic text (for the OT) and the Textus receptus (for the NT)-?
What other Hebrew texts conflict with teh Masoretic text? Where are they, what are they called, how old are they and how do scholars determine which is the "most authentic" (interpret as you may)...?
:huh:

where does Strong get the actual Hebrew words from?


I found this link (see below) which states that the Codex Alexandrinus and the Codex Vaticanus both have 2 Samuel in them. Presumably in Greek, but none the less I would assume they may differ on II Sam 21:8...anyone know?

http://home.earthlink.net/~rgjones3/.../sp_books.html

Crazy Liz

Strongs is simply a concordance, listing all the places in scripture where particular words can be found. Each Hebrew or Greek root word is assigned a number. Most editions of Strongs also include some lexical/glossary information, but this is not as detailed or accurate as you would find in a good lexicon.

Do you know about the Blueletter Bible? You can look up the KJV of the 66 books of the prrotestant Bible by English word, phrase or Strongs number. If you are looking up a Hebrew word, you put a 0 in front of the number. You can click the little "C" button to the right of any English verse and see lexical and concordance information, as well as the original languages. For the NT, you will see the TR above the verse and the Westcott-Hort below. For the OT, the unpointed Hebrew (BHS) is displayed above and the LXX below.

I don't know much about OT text criticism. I do know the DSS contain more variants than are found in previously known Hebrew MSS. The KJV-only crowd claim there is some MSS called "Ben Chaim" (or something like that) that was used to translate the KJV, rather than the MT. But these are the same guys who claim the LXX is a hoax, so I don't give them much credence.

From the MT, I'm sure.

Yes, that website says Septuagint, so it would be Greek. I am not aware of significant variances in different LXX manuscripts. I do notice that the BHS and LXX both mention Michal in 2 Samuel 21:8, while her name is omitted entirely from most of the modern Christian translations, such as NASB. Like I said, I don't know enough about OT text criticism to say anything about that. It's possible Michal's name does not appear here in the DSS.

BTW, here's how the JPS translates it: http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b21.htm

dongiovanni1976x

Thank you for the information. I have always just used a well worn copy of strongs concordance or I go online to http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html - which does have links to the Blue Letter Bible you mentioned. I am curious what translation was used for the link http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt08b21.htm that you mentioned. It is the only translation that I have seen to translate the verb YALAD properly and use the proper noun Michal as well.
I found a basic answer to my other question:
"The King James Version's Old Testament is based on the Masoretic Text while the New Testament is based on the Textus Receptus as published by Erasmus." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version )

So anyone know what Hebrew texts conflict with the Masoretic Text (MT)? Whose name is in chapter 21:8 in the LXX? Does the Aleppo Codex differ from the MT? Do any of the Tanakh scrolls have the book "2 Samuel" in it?

And does anyone have additions to this list of manuscripts:

Byzantine Text-type
Textus Receptus/Received Text (Erasmus; based on 12th cent text)


Alexandrian text-type
Codex Vaticanus (early 4th cent. GK)
Codex Sinaiticus (4th cent. GK/Egypt) Has some OT books
Alexandrian Mss
[Wescott & Hort (1881)]

Western Text-type
Codex Bezae (GK, Syriac 5/6th cent.)
Codex Claromontanus
Vetus Latina (Old Latin collection of Bibles…varies significantly)
Old Syriac


Old Testament
Septuagint LXX
Masoretic Text (MT)
Aleppo Codex
Tanakh scrolls (e.g. including the Dead Sea Scrolls)

Anat

dongiovanni, I was just looking for scenarios where Michal could have had children. If she was really believed to have had quintuplets on her deathbed I suppose more would have been made of it than some mention that those 5 sons were hers. I'm not a literalist, but before making a claim of inconsistency I want to see if the sources can be reconciled.

Crazy Liz

It is the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) translation.

These are broad categories of MSS. There are many manuscripts within most of these categories, some of which have more variants than others. For example, for the MT there are the Biblica Hebarica Stutgartensa and the Leningrad Codex. I've read there is at least one other that was used by the KJV translators.

dongiovanni1976x

I feel exactly the same. If for no other reason than to give the opposition the benefit of the doubt.