Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2010, 08:42 AM

God With Us

Jesus - Saviour
Lord - Yahweh
Christ - Messiah

Does Jesus actually have a name or are we looking only at titles?

ApostateAbe · 07-19-2010, 08:49 AM

Jesus (Yeshua) is a name and was a very common name at the time, so, yes, Jesus had a name, not just a bunch of titles. Almost every "name" seemingly began as a word with a meaning. The meaning of "Yeshua" is reportedly closer to "salvation" than to "savior." The name "Yahweh" does not actually mean "Lord," though "YHWH" is most often translated "LORD." It is really only a name that presumably means "I am." You are right about "Christ - Messiah," though.

show_no_mercy · 07-19-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Does Jesus actually have a name or are we looking only at titles?

I'm not aware of any name in antiquity that didn't have some sort of meaning.

Jehoshua (where we get "Joshua" > "Jesus") and Isaiah mean the same thing in Hebrew.

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2010, 11:44 AM

But the problem with Immanuel is that the reference says it means God with us.

show_no_mercy · 07-19-2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

But the problem with Immanuel is that the reference says it means God with us.

Ok?

Every Jewish name that has el in it (like Danel, Nathaniel, Rafael, Michael,) means something-or-other to do with God. Immanuel is not some unique name. It wouldn't really make a difference if Isaiah 7:14 said the kid's name would be Nathaniel (which means gift of god).

The Prime Minister of Israel's name means gift of YHWH.

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2010, 12:01 PM

God with us is a major shift in thinking, from the aloof El Shaddai who showed Moses his bum and burnt Moses' face and was in the holy of holies and who could not be approached except by the pure high priest once a year.

In Hebrews we have similar ideas, the conjoining of God and Man. Christ the High Priest.

Xianity is based on a dream, of the uniting of God and humans, the creation of a new heaven and earth following the rending of the veil of the temple and the death and resurrection of the Saviour Yahweh Messiah who brings God with us.

100% Dream and story.

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2010, 12:10 PM

Quote:

IN THE NAME OF . . ."

THE POTENCY OF THE NAME

OUTSTANDING among those beliefs that are universally characteristic of the religion of superstition is the conviction that "a man's name is the essence of his being" (one Hebrew text says "a man's name is his person" and another, "his name is his soul") . This doctrine elevated the process of naming a child into one of major importance. The name carried with it all the associations it had accumulated in history, and stamped the character of its earlier owners upon its new bearer, so that the choice of a name was fraught with grave responsibility. But the desire to bless a child with a richly endowed name was balanced by the fear that the soul of its previous owner would be transported into the body of the infant—a fear which stood in the way of naming children after living parents or after any living persons, and thus robbing them of their soul and their life. This dread led indeed in some cases to a superstitious refusal to adopt the name even of a dead ancestor, since this would oblige the soul to forsake its heavenly abode and re-enter the realm of the living. It must have been this line of reasoning—if reason it is—that prompted Judah the Pious to provide in his testament that "none of his descendants shall be called by his name, Judah, or by his father's name, Samuel." Such a far-fetched extension of the superstition, however, was rare; the usual procedure was to name children after ancestors.

It was often observed that his name is the mainspring not only of a person's character, but also of his fate. Certain names bring good fortune, others, bad; the "heavenly decrees" that are associated with them determine which. One can discover the latent import of a name only by a close study of the lives of individuals who have borne it. It would be the height of rashness to saddle a youngster with a name whose owners have been unfortunate, or have died young, or have been murdered. The name that caused the misfortune

p. 79

would bring bad luck with it. For the same reason a widow or widower should not marry a person with the same name as the deceased mate. "Nor is all this to be regarded as silly superstition," we are solemnly assured; the writer testified to its truth from his own wide experience.

Confronted with two individuals of the same name, the spirits were as likely as not to choose the wrong one upon whom to lavish their unwelcome attentions. An angel executing a decree of sickness or death might visit it upon the first who answered to the designated name. Such things happened, as several anecdotes attest. The superstition against naming a child after a living person was consequently strengthened, and with it an avoidance of duplicating names in one family. A marriage in which the bride or groom bore the name of one of the in-laws, or which united two families owning a name in common, was discountenanced as imprudent indeed. Nor should several families with a common name reside in one dwelling. In such cases the spirits would be absolutely at a loss to distinguish the one from the other. People went so far as to avoid entering the home of a sick person who bore their name; should it be the moment assigned for the death stroke the hale might be assaulted in place of the ill.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/jms/jms09.htm

bacht · 07-19-2010, 12:11 PM

Immanuel [from Jewish Encyclopedia 1906]:

This name occurs only thrice in the Bible, in Isa. vii. 14 and viii. 8, 10 (in the last-cited verse the rendering "God is with us" is given in the English versions). According to the Targum Yerushalmi, "Immanuel" in the first two instances is to be taken as a proper name and not as two words; in the last passage as two words forming an entire sentence. In the Talmud and Midrash the name does not occur at all; nor is it among the many names for the Messiah enumerated by Hamburger, "R. B. T." ii. 740 et seq. The Greek Baruch Apocalypse (iv.) says that Jesus Christ is called "Immanuel," which of course is a Christian interpolation. In the Haggadah "Immanuel" is not mentioned, which seems to indicate that the application of this word to the Messiah was not known in Jewish circles.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz0u9mqWmOp

show_no_mercy · 07-19-2010, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

God with us is a major shift in thinking, from the aloof El Shaddai who showed Moses his bum and burnt Moses' face and was in the holy of holies and who could not be approached except by the pure high priest once a year.

In Hebrews we have similar ideas, the conjoining of God and Man. Christ the High Priest.

Xianity is based on a dream, of the uniting of God and humans, the creation of a new heaven and earth following the rending of the veil of the temple and the death and resurrection of the Saviour Yahweh Messiah who brings God with us.

100% Dream and story.

What about the name "Israel"? Surely one who literally struggled with god is in the presence of god.

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2010, 01:09 PM

http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=21761

That is struggle!

07-19-2010, 08:42 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Immanuel God With Us Jesus - Saviour Lord - Yahweh Christ - Messiah Does Jesus actually have a name or are we looking only at titles?

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07-19-2010, 08:49 AM	#2
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	Jesus (Yeshua) is a name and was a very common name at the time, so, yes, Jesus had a name, not just a bunch of titles. Almost every "name" seemingly began as a word with a meaning. The meaning of "Yeshua" is reportedly closer to "salvation" than to "savior." The name "Yahweh" does not actually mean "Lord," though "YHWH" is most often translated "LORD." It is really only a name that presumably means "I am." You are right about "Christ - Messiah," though.

07-19-2010, 11:44 AM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	But the problem with Immanuel is that the reference says it means God with us.

07-19-2010, 12:01 PM	#6
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	God with us is a major shift in thinking, from the aloof El Shaddai who showed Moses his bum and burnt Moses' face and was in the holy of holies and who could not be approached except by the pure high priest once a year. In Hebrews we have similar ideas, the conjoining of God and Man. Christ the High Priest. Xianity is based on a dream, of the uniting of God and humans, the creation of a new heaven and earth following the rending of the veil of the temple and the death and resurrection of the Saviour Yahweh Messiah who brings God with us. 100% Dream and story.

07-19-2010, 12:11 PM	#8
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	Immanuel [from Jewish Encyclopedia 1906]: This name occurs only thrice in the Bible, in Isa. vii. 14 and viii. 8, 10 (in the last-cited verse the rendering "God is with us" is given in the English versions). According to the Targum Yerushalmi, "Immanuel" in the first two instances is to be taken as a proper name and not as two words; in the last passage as two words forming an entire sentence. In the Talmud and Midrash the name does not occur at all; nor is it among the many names for the Messiah enumerated by Hamburger, "R. B. T." ii. 740 et seq. The Greek Baruch Apocalypse (iv.) says that Jesus Christ is called "Immanuel," which of course is a Christian interpolation. In the Haggadah "Immanuel" is not mentioned, which seems to indicate that the application of this word to the Messiah was not known in Jewish circles. http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...#ixzz0u9mqWmOp

07-19-2010, 01:09 PM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?workid=21761 That is struggle!

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