Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-20-2009, 01:01 PM

What exactly do you believe? Do you believe that Jesus preexisted the formation of the world, created the world, and then descended to earth in human form, was born of a virgin, crucified under Pontius Pilate, while making no impression on 99% of the earth's inhabitants at the time? How much theology and secular history do you try to combine?

ksen · 10-20-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

What exactly do you believe? Do you believe that Jesus preexisted the formation of the world,

Yes.

Quote:

created the world,

Yes.

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and then descended to earth in human form,

What? Where is that mentioned in the Bible? No.

Quote:

was born of a virgin,

Yes.

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crucified under Pontius Pilate,

Yes.

Quote:

while making no impression on 99% of the earth's inhabitants at the time?

Yes.

Quote:

How much theology and secular history do you try to combine?

Please clarify.

Barefoot Bree · 10-20-2009, 02:31 PM

The range of belief combinations within Christianity alone are damn near infinite, and if you search long enough, you'll find somebody who believes each one.

That said, I have to say that yes, some significant portion of Christians today do believe that an actual historical Jesus lived 2000 years ago. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of them believe that bare statement. The other details vary immensely.

Christianity today, especially in the US, is very much a literal version, rather than a mystical one. I don't mean to include biblical literalness in that; what's the opposite of "mysticism" when speaking of religion? Help me with the word, please.

mountainman · 10-20-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

I hate to bring this up, but I think we're in need of some definitions here. "Historical" appears to have different meanings and attached connotations to different people in this thread.

History means following the ancient historical evidence wherever it may lead us. If the ancient historical evidence suggests that the jesus of the new testament was a fabrication and a fiction, then what are we to think?

lex · 10-20-2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

The range of belief combinations within Christianity alone are damn near infinite, and if you search long enough, you'll find somebody who believes each one.

That said, I have to say that yes, some significant portion of Christians today do believe that an actual historical Jesus lived 2000 years ago. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of them believe that bare statement. The other details vary immensely.

Christianity today, especially in the US, is very much a literal version, rather than a mystical one. I don't mean to include biblical literalness in that; what's the opposite of "mysticism" when speaking of religion? Help me with the word, please.

Truth

aa5874 · 10-20-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksen

I love how when a simple question is asked and a simple is answer is given that people try to pounce on the answer giver with basically, "Oh yeah? Well what about . . . ?"

The OP asked if Christians believed in a historical Jesus. By that I took it to mean do Christians believe that the Jesus described in the Bible really existed and walked the earth at some point in the past?

My answer to that is that at least this Christian does believe it.

Any derails about Chimeras or Phantom Jesus really have nothing to do with the question and my answer.

It cannot be a derail to find out what kind of Jesus you believe in.

Why do you think that your Jesus is the only Jesus that could have existed?

Marcion's Phantom Jesus, the son of a God, appears to be no more incredible than your Jesus, the offspring of the Holy Ghost. The name "christian" does not inherently mean Jesus believers.

Do you not understand that your Jesus may have been some-kind of clone of Marcion's Jesus?

Barefoot Bree · 10-20-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

The range of belief combinations within Christianity alone are damn near infinite, and if you search long enough, you'll find somebody who believes each one.

That said, I have to say that yes, some significant portion of Christians today do believe that an actual historical Jesus lived 2000 years ago. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of them believe that bare statement. The other details vary immensely.

Christianity today, especially in the US, is very much a literal version, rather than a mystical one. I don't mean to include biblical literalness in that; what's the opposite of "mysticism" when speaking of religion? Help me with the word, please.

Truth

Were you answering my word-search question, or just sycophantically sucking up?

GakuseiDon · 10-20-2009, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

Quote:

Originally Posted by lex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefoot Bree

Christianity today, especially in the US, is very much a literal version, rather than a mystical one. I don't mean to include biblical literalness in that; what's the opposite of "mysticism" when speaking of religion? Help me with the word, please.

Truth

Were you answering my word-search question, or just sycophantically sucking up?

Word. :angel:

mountainman · 10-21-2009, 12:26 AM

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Originally Posted by ksen

Quote:

How is that historical?

If that person really existed then how is he NOT historical?

That's a big IF at the beginning. The C14 suggests a late date for the appearance. What if the historical truth is that Jesus was fabricated out of nothing existing, to borrow a sophism from Arius, or that he was found by Constantine in a house of pleasure, to borrow the satire of Emperor Julian.

Craigart14 · 10-22-2009, 08:32 PM

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Originally Posted by No Robots

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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

It is my own integrity, my ethics and my morality that prevents me from being converted and absorbed by one or another of them. None of them are 'good enough' to garner my admiration or allegiance.

Wow, you sound like a right, regular paragon. Have they found out about you yet?

Well, I'm with Sheshbazzar. I don't know of any religion that has stood up for its principles in the face of violence or any ancient religion that doesn't espouse barbaric laws that few of us could ever accept. The degree to which any religion can survive is the degree to which it can back off from its "eternal" laws. Jews don't stone people anymore, Christians don't burn heretics alive, and the day will come when Muslims cease their so-called "honor" killings. I wouldn't want to be part of any of these faiths. They all have shameful records. Maybe one day an organized religion will defend the downtrodden against homicidal tyrants, even risking its own riches and power to stop the murder of the defenseless. But I doubt it. Individuals may do the right thing (consider Oskar Schindler and Raoul Wallenberg) partly out of religious conviction, but organizations will not.

Craig

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10-20-2009, 01:01 PM	#31
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	What exactly do you believe? Do you believe that Jesus preexisted the formation of the world, created the world, and then descended to earth in human form, was born of a virgin, crucified under Pontius Pilate, while making no impression on 99% of the earth's inhabitants at the time? How much theology and secular history do you try to combine?

10-20-2009, 02:31 PM	#33
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	The range of belief combinations within Christianity alone are damn near infinite, and if you search long enough, you'll find somebody who believes each one. That said, I have to say that yes, some significant portion of Christians today do believe that an actual historical Jesus lived 2000 years ago. In fact, I'd say the vast majority of them believe that bare statement. The other details vary immensely. Christianity today, especially in the US, is very much a literal version, rather than a mystical one. I don't mean to include biblical literalness in that; what's the opposite of "mysticism" when speaking of religion? Help me with the word, please.

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