Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-19-2009, 03:56 PM

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Q: What makes the best 'case for God' to a skeptic or non-believer, an open-minded seeker, and to a person of faith and Why?

Answer
Jesus.

Christianity is not first and foremost about a sacred place to pilgrimage to, a philosophical system to ponder, a moral code to live, a religious tradition to honor, or an impersonal god to experience. Rather, Christianity is about a person who claimed to be the only God and said he would prove his unprecedented claim by living without sin, dying for sinners, and conquering death through resurrection.

So, as Christians, our aim is not to convince people of some god in general, but to introduce them to Jesus in particular. And since he created us with the ability to communicate, think, love, and experience, Christians have always valued using every means by which the truth and love of Jesus can be revealed.

A merely human Jesus, a failed apocalyptic prophet or a wandering sage, would not fit this definition.

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Christianity has always held, based upon the teachings of Jesus and the prophets of the Old Testament and apostles of the New Testament, that in Jesus, the Creator has entered into creation on a rescue mission for the restoring of relationship, in fulfillment of Scripture.....

Three days later, Jesus rose, conquering sin and death and vindicating his claims. Subsequently, if Jesus is dead, so is Christianity. If Jesus is alive, so is Christianity . . .

Does history enter into this?

Rick Sumner · 10-19-2009, 07:23 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

A merely human Jesus, a failed apocalyptic prophet or a wandering sage, would not fit this definition.

Didn't Strauss make this point like. . .2 centuries ago?

Nothing to see here.

Solo · 10-19-2009, 08:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Does history enter into this?

It is one way to obssess about Jesus. BTW, it is not anywhere near as bizzare sport as Richard Dawkins' attempt to claim that Jesus was a theist faute de mieux. Doctor Delusion believes there were no brights who said in their hearts "there is no God" in Jesus' time.

Jiri

mountainman · 10-19-2009, 08:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Toto

Does history enter into this?

No. Its 100% apologetics.

mountainman · 10-19-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Does history enter into this?

It is one way to obssess about Jesus. BTW, it is not anywhere near as bizzare sport as Richard Dawkins' attempt to claim that Jesus was a theist faute de mieux.

Does Dawkin's believe in an historical Jesus? It appears that this is the case. What a morass.

Barefoot Bree · 10-19-2009, 10:03 PM

Toto, what kind of Christians are you asking about? The answer you'd get if you asked them is as varied as the answer to any other question on the table.

But I can tell you from personal conversations that many rank-and-file Christians - I'd like to say "most", but have no real evidence of it - do believe in a historical Jesus, of the dual natured variety: some mix of both human and divine. The exact nature of that mix is what causes a good deal of the controversy between sects.

Toto · 10-19-2009, 10:09 PM

I think that Dawkins believes in the Jesus that the post-Enlightenment Deists constructed by taking the gospels and removing the supernatural parts. That Jesus has passed over into modern culture. I think that most liberal protestants believe in this reconstructed "Great Man" Jesus, and try to forget about the supernatural aspects.

Minimalist · 10-19-2009, 10:17 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Originally Posted by Toto

Does history enter into this?

No. Its 100% apologetics.

Agreed...with a large dose of propaganda injected at the beginning.

mountainman · 10-19-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I think that Dawkins believes in the Jesus that the post-Enlightenment Deists constructed by taking the gospels and removing the supernatural parts.

Dawkins is a few light years behind in his research into BC&H.

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That Jesus has passed over into modern culture.

A long time ago.

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I think that most liberal protestants believe in this reconstructed "Great Man" Jesus, and try to forget about the supernatural aspects.

And the historical evidence.

The problem is that atheist think similarly.
The assertion that there was an HJ
(in an historical not religious sense)
appears deeply embedded in the subconscious.

Sheshbazzar · 10-19-2009, 11:18 PM

Many of my Christian friends and acquaintances are not too concerned about the existence of a real Jesus, their concern is with the concept of 'doing good' and preserving the traditional ethics, customs, and the institutions of the communities in which they live. And also live their lives with some small measure of hope that there is more to life, and a reward for those that truly love their fellow man, and some level of comeuppance or punishment to be exacted against those who wilfully rob, cheat, abuse, and murder their fellow man.
I have no quarrel with these gentle souls, nor do I find it pleasurable to mock their beliefs, or seek opportunities to point out the flaws that are in their Bibles or belief systems.
Some believe in a 'Historical Jesus' and some (privately) actually do not (and whatever denomination they might be, or Church they might attend really has little bearing on their personal persuasions as to his 'historicity', only their individual conscience)

After sixty years of living, I am able to get along well with most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and can count individuals of all three religions among my dear friends.
In fact, the upcoming marriage of one of my Muslim family members is the next big event on my social calandar, and I couldn't love her any more if she were a Christian or an Infidel!
I love her best (and husband-to-be) exactly as the Muslim people that they are. I wouldn't change them, or their beliefs, even if I could.

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10-19-2009, 10:03 PM	#6
Barefoot Bree Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: East of ginger trees Posts: 12,637	Toto, what kind of Christians are you asking about? The answer you'd get if you asked them is as varied as the answer to any other question on the table. But I can tell you from personal conversations that many rank-and-file Christians - I'd like to say "most", but have no real evidence of it - do believe in a historical Jesus, of the dual natured variety: some mix of both human and divine. The exact nature of that mix is what causes a good deal of the controversy between sects.

10-19-2009, 10:09 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think that Dawkins believes in the Jesus that the post-Enlightenment Deists constructed by taking the gospels and removing the supernatural parts. That Jesus has passed over into modern culture. I think that most liberal protestants believe in this reconstructed "Great Man" Jesus, and try to forget about the supernatural aspects.

10-19-2009, 11:18 PM	#10
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Many of my Christian friends and acquaintances are not too concerned about the existence of a real Jesus, their concern is with the concept of 'doing good' and preserving the traditional ethics, customs, and the institutions of the communities in which they live. And also live their lives with some small measure of hope that there is more to life, and a reward for those that truly love their fellow man, and some level of comeuppance or punishment to be exacted against those who wilfully rob, cheat, abuse, and murder their fellow man. I have no quarrel with these gentle souls, nor do I find it pleasurable to mock their beliefs, or seek opportunities to point out the flaws that are in their Bibles or belief systems. Some believe in a 'Historical Jesus' and some (privately) actually do not (and whatever denomination they might be, or Church they might attend really has little bearing on their personal persuasions as to his 'historicity', only their individual conscience) After sixty years of living, I am able to get along well with most Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and can count individuals of all three religions among my dear friends. In fact, the upcoming marriage of one of my Muslim family members is the next big event on my social calandar, and I couldn't love her any more if she were a Christian or an Infidel! I love her best (and husband-to-be) exactly as the Muslim people that they are. I wouldn't change them, or their beliefs, even if I could.

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