aa5874

There are many arguments against or for any position.

Can you explain how Ignatius could be a prisonner, possibly condemned to die, and still had the freedom to write to Christians, in effect, carrying out the same crime for which he was arrested and charged? I think Ignatius' letters may all be forgeries. I find it unrealistic and bizarre for a prisonner on death row to be openly involved in criminal activities, i.e, spreading the gospel by his epistles.

Do you know of any fool-proof way of dating the writings of Clement of Alexander to a specific date?

Justin Martyr appeared to have been writing First Apology about 150 years from the birth of Jesus, see First Apology 46, does Clement have any internal references in his writings to date them?

As I said before, I have no problems with my position. Justin Martyr mentioned Jesus, Peter and Marcion but he never made any reference to Paul. I think the name "Paul" may have been unknown up to 150 CE.

I am not familiar with any authentic writings from "Paul". I am not even sure "Paul" is authentic, his conversion appears to be fiction, he cannot remember how he met Jesus, "in the body or out the body", and there are at least two "Pauls" or maybe five more. I consider "Paul" to be fiction until further information show otherwise.

schilling.klaus

This has already been done by the great P.L. Couchoud in
La Premie`re E'dition de St. Paul,
now available at
http://www.radikalkritik.de/Couch_engl.pdf

Klaus Schilling

schilling.klaus

all humbuf, the falsely so-called authentic epistles are nothing but a late patchwork for Catholic dogmmatic reasons.

all lies by churchfathers.
The Ignatiandss abnd 1Clement are all late forgeries
that require an established Roman Catholic church and the knowledge
of some of heresies known in mid to late second century only.

Klaus Schilling

TedM

IF that is true (I haven't studied Justin), it is interesting and may mean something. I don't know his works well enough to comment further.


Why don't you read him and see for yourself how odd your position really is?
As for Ignatius and Clement it looks like you've done no research on them either.

Do you not see how unreasonable it is to take such a stance when you really don't know the material and background? Of course few of us here are experts, but you show no willingness to education yourself further on basic things like knowledge of the material you are even talking about!

I'm done trying to have a real discussion with you. I tried this once before and hopefully this time have learned my lesson.

tedm

TedM

I don't think you've addressed my question very directly at all Klaus. Can't you just give me a few examples of inconsistencies in the long version which you claim exist? That is--examples of where the long version contradicts either itself or another one of the "authentic" epistles?

That being said, I'm planning to read this link because I've wanted to understand this position regarding Marcion better, so thanks for that.

In your opinion what are the 2 or 3 biggest reasons you think Marcion's version was the original and not a pared down text from what we have today? I really am interested to know this. Please provide a full and coherent explanation.

thanks,

ted

aa5874

Why don't you study Justin Martyr and see for yourself that "Paul" is not mentioned in any of his extant writings, although Justin wrote around the middle of the 2nd century?

I did read about "Paul"s" so-called conversion in Acts 9, Acts 22, Acts 26 and I think that the bright light from heaven, the voice from heaven and the scales on "Paul's" eyes are fiction.

Acts 9.3-18 I also read about some so-called encounter of "Paul" in 2Corinthians 12.2-3. This encounter appears to be confusing and fictitious. [quote] I met a man in Christ......( whether in the body or out of the body , I cannot tell)....
And I knew such a man, ( whether in the body or out of the body , I cannot tell....

"Paul" knew Jesus but he could not recall if Jesus was real.

My research on Ignatius indicates that the epistles were not likely to be written when he was a prisoner on death row.

And, with all these epistles written to Churches, I cannot find a single reply from any of those Churches that they did in fact receive a single one.

Where are the epistles from the Romans, Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians or any other Church to Paul, Ignatius or Clement to acknowledge or verify receipt of the so-called epistles.

You're a quick learner. The things I discuss are not real. "Jesus and Paul".

TedM

Take care,

ted

Clivedurdle

Is it not agreed Paul is talking about himself here having a visionary experience, third heaven etc?

Toto

Yes. That is how it is usually read. I have never heard anyone who thought that passage referred to Jesus.

aa5874

I am going to miss your hypothetical scenarios and barrage of questions.