rahrens

As part of my continuing journey from christian to atheist, I am looking at various parts of the bible and its story for what evidence I can find (or not) to test for how much I feel I can believe that source.

Much of that journey has led me to believe that much of that "book" is just bunk, but a large part of it is devoted to the story of Paul and the churches he founded, as seen through his letters to them.

Since I am not a biblical scholar, and many of the folks here are much more familiar than I with the subject, I turn to you.

My question to this forum is this:

Of the churches Paul wrote to as enshrined in the new testament, how many of those churches are known, through independent sources, to have been truly founded around the time that he is supposed to have been making his ministry and writing those letters?

IS there such evidence, or is the only known information contained in the Pauline letters?

Additionally, discounting the letters themselves, what independent evidence is there for the actual, real existence of Paul himself?

In short, is there any independent evidence for the truth of the Pauline story? How much can I, as a thinking, intelligence adult, depend upon the biblical story for the truth of it?

Thank you, in advance, for your help in learning more about this subject!

Toto

Welcome rahrens.

You can search the archives here for threads on the dating of Paul's letters, and for evidence of early Christianity. I think you will find that there is no other evidence for any Christian church, and there is no way of confidently dating Paul's letters to the mid-first century. There is no evidence of Paul except for his letters, unless you subscribe to the theory that Paul was actually Simon Magus or a minor character in Josephus.

The traditional dating of Paul's letters depends on accepting a core of historicity to the Acts of the Apostles. But that is an act of faith.

rahrens

I think I'm finished with "Acts" of faith! (pun intended)

Thanks. What do you think of folks that automatically just accept the christian position that Paul was the author of the letters? Of, specifically, accepting the position that the letters themselves are proof of Paul's existence?

I ran into that this weekend over in the SamHarris forums, and was astounded at that attitude - by a moderator, no less!

Toto

Well, the letters were written by someone - we can just call him Paul, and we've shown that Paul existed and wrote the letters. But that doesn't tell us anything about who Paul really was or when he lived.

And it is within the realm of possibility, if not probability, that the letters we have that people think were written by Paul were heavily edited or interpolated by later Christians.

rahrens

Ok, where can I see some information on that proof that Paul existed and wrote the letters? I'd love to be able to study it. I agree that someone had to write them. I'd just like to see whether there is specific proof that it was really the guy the letters claim him to be.

Solitary Man

What specific proof do you have that Julius Caesar wrote De Bello Gallico, or that Josephus wrote Bellum Iudaicum?

Toto

Your samharris thread is here.

If you want a different view on Paul's letters, read Robert Price, The Evolution of the Pauline Canon

rahrens

Don't know. If I did, I wouldn't have to ask. Toto said it had been shown. I'd just like to know how, and if that proof is reliable.

rahrens

Yep, that's it.

<edited out> Just how accepted is his view?

peanutaxis

rahrens, I think you might be going down the wrong track. It seems to me of little consequence as to who wrote the letters and of much consequence as to what they contain.
Of particular importance in my own deconversion is the fabrication of Christian ideas with time: (i)the fact that Paul says almost nothing about Jesus in his letters, but that the gospels, written afterwards, say plenty!. (ii) the contradictions between gospels, and (iii) the realisation that the canonical gospels are but four gospels canonized, of thirty or more! (so read some non-canonical gospels to see how much crap they made up in those days)
I always recomment Bart Ehrman, Misquoting Jesus; Lost Christianities