Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emphryio · 09-02-2005, 11:09 AM

I've heard that there were as many as 30+ "messiahs" within a hundred of so years of Jesus' supposed existence. But then I heard that source was dubious (and now it's long lost to me). I have only previously found like maybe 5 messiahs that seem pretty definite. Anyone know of any relatively solid lists with short descriptions of each messiah?

emphryio · 09-02-2005, 11:20 AM

Well I suppose this is a pretty decent link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah...siah_claimants

Peter Kirby · 09-02-2005, 11:29 AM

This is a rather good website:

Livius

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

emphryio · 09-02-2005, 12:06 PM

That site seems to be assuming that Jesus existed.

Peter Kirby · 09-02-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emphryio

That site seems to be assuming that Jesus existed.

It seems to be assuming that over 30 people existed, yet you balk at this one.

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 09-02-2005, 12:25 PM

I have my doubts about Moses of Crete

Quote:

When at length the Jews perceived how fearfully they had been duped, they blamed their own indiscreet credulity, and sought to lay hold of the pseudo-Moses in order to put him to death. But they were unable to seize them, for he suddenly disappeared, which induced a general belief that it was some malignant fiend, who had assumed a human form for the destruction of their nation in that place.

It's just too good a story.

emphryio · 09-02-2005, 12:28 PM

I would hope they would at least mention the controvery of Josephus supposedly becoming a christian for one paragraph and all else along those lines, as I would hope they would mention anything dubious about these other supposed messiahs. I guess it's not important.

CJD · 09-02-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emphryio

I would hope they would at least mention the controvery of Josephus supposedly becoming a christian for one paragraph and all else along those lines, as I would hope they would mention anything dubious about these other supposed messiahs. I guess it's not important.

From Livius:

Quote:

It should be stressed that this is a reconstruction of Josephus' words; our manuscripts are full of interpolations. (Go here for a discussion of the exact wording of this text.) … It is unlikely that a pious Jew like Flavius Josephus would have written that Jesus 'appeared to them on the third day, living again'; consequently, there has been a lot of scholarly debate about the explanation of this strange remark. Some argued that we had to admit that Flavius Josephus had become a Christian; others maintained that it was made up by some Byzantine monk who copied the Jewish Antiquities. The latter explanation can be ruled out because a more or less identical text had been found in an Arabian translation of a part of the Jewish Antiquities. In 1991, John Meier has suggested that Josephus did in fact mention Jesus, but that the text was glossed by a Christian author.

Read much?

Peter Kirby · 09-02-2005, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emphryio

I would hope they would at least mention the controvery of Josephus supposedly becoming a christian for one paragraph and all else along those lines, as I would hope they would mention anything dubious about these other supposed messiahs. I guess it's not important.

Here's what Jona Lendering has to say about Josephus and Jesus:

Quote:

It is unlikely that a pious Jew like Flavius Josephus would have written that Jesus 'appeared to them on the third day, living again'; consequently, there has been a lot of scholarly debate about the explanation of this strange remark. Some argued that we had to admit that Flavius Josephus had become a Christian; others maintained that it was made up by some Byzantine monk who copied the Jewish Antiquities. The latter explanation can be ruled out because a more or less identical text had been found in an Arabian translation of a part of the Jewish Antiquities. In 1991, John Meier has suggested that Josephus did in fact mention Jesus, but that the text was glossed by a Christian author. His reconstruction of the text is as follows:

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of the people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out.

Even in this reconstruction, this text is of monumental importance. Not only is Flavius Josephus the only first century non-Christian writer mentioning Jesus' life, teachings and death independently of the of the gospels, but he also suggests that Jesus was innocent. A straightforward report would have told that Pilate executed the man from Nazareth because he was considered to be the king of the Jews. But instead of naming the accusation, the Jewish historian names the accusers. Since he usually delights in writing about the deserved punishment of rebels and pretenders, the fact that he does not inform us of the charge, means that he thought that Jesus was innocent.

kind thoughts,
Peter Kirby

emphryio · 09-02-2005, 01:17 PM

Considering how the christians grasp for anything, if Josephus had even originally said that much surely some other writer would have mentioned it before the 400 AD.

09-02-2005, 11:09 AM	#1
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	How many messiahs were there? I've heard that there were as many as 30+ "messiahs" within a hundred of so years of Jesus' supposed existence. But then I heard that source was dubious (and now it's long lost to me). I have only previously found like maybe 5 messiahs that seem pretty definite. Anyone know of any relatively solid lists with short descriptions of each messiah?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-02-2005, 11:20 AM	#2
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	Well I suppose this is a pretty decent link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah...siah_claimants

09-02-2005, 11:29 AM	#3
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	This is a rather good website: Livius kind thoughts, Peter Kirby

09-02-2005, 12:06 PM	#4
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	That site seems to be assuming that Jesus existed.

09-02-2005, 12:28 PM	#7
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	I would hope they would at least mention the controvery of Josephus supposedly becoming a christian for one paragraph and all else along those lines, as I would hope they would mention anything dubious about these other supposed messiahs. I guess it's not important.

09-02-2005, 01:17 PM	#10
emphryio Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: WV Posts: 4,369	Considering how the christians grasp for anything, if Josephus had even originally said that much surely some other writer would have mentioned it before the 400 AD.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.