Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-27-2010, 07:30 PM

Mystery Cults of the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Hugh Bowden.

Reviewed by Mary Beard here.

Quote:

What was it that the initiates of Dionysus or the “Great Mother” knew that the uninitiated did not? In his refreshing new survey, Mystery Cults in Ancient World, Hugh Bowden suggests that we have perhaps been worrying unnecessarily about that question. In fact, we don’t have to imagine the ancients were so much better keepers of secrets than we are, for no secret knowledge, as such, was transmitted at all. ...

mountainman · 05-28-2010, 05:13 AM

From the article ....

How the Greeks met their gods

Lord God Caesars .... one after another .....

Quote:

The ancient Greeks and Romans must have been very good at keeping secrets. Or so our lack of information on the famous “Eleusinian Mysteries” (celebrated in an impressive sanctuary just a few miles outside Athens) would suggest – not to mention our lack of information on all the other, similar, initiatory religions found throughout the ancient world....

Most of the "information and secrets" of the Greeks were burnt
and purposefully destroyed by the imperial Christian soldiers.
This should be no mystery to ancient historians of the 4th century.

Quote:

Eusebius VC 57:
How the Gentiles abandoned Idol Worship, and turned to the Knowledge of God.

HENCE it was that, of those who had been the slaves of superstition, when they saw with their own eyes the exposure of their delusion, and beheld the actual ruin of the temples and images in every place, some applied themselves to the saving doctrine of Christ; while others, though they declined to take this step, yet reprobated the folly which they had received from their fathers, and laughed to scorn what they had so long been accustomed to regard as gods. Indeed, what other feelings could possess their minds, when they witnessed the thorough uncleanness concealed beneath the fair exterior of the objects of their worship? Beneath this were found either the bones of dead men or dry skulls, fraudulently adorned by the arts of magicians, (1) or filthy rags full of abominable impurity, or a bundle of hay or stubble.

On seeing all these things heaped together within their lifeless images, they denounced their fathers' extreme folly and their own, especially when neither in the secret recesses of the temples nor in the statues themselves could any inmate be found; neither demon, nor utterer of oracles, neither god nor prophet, as they had heretofore supposed: nay, not even a dim and shadowy phantom could be seen.

Accordingly, every gloomy cavern, every hidden recess, afforded easy access to the emperor's emissaries: the inaccessible and secret chambers, the innermost shrines of the temples, were trampled by the soldiers' feet; and thus the mental blindness which had prevailed for so many ages over the gentile world became clearly apparent to the eyes of all.

Roger Pearse · 05-28-2010, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beard

And he takes many scholars to task (myself included) for assuming that the cult of the Great Mother in Rome, based on the Palatine Hill, just next to the Roman imperial palace, was served by ecstatic eunuch priests who castrated themselves with a piece of flint.

Some of us had already been a little more circumspect about this than Bowden allows: you only have to read accounts of pre-modern full castration (for the Great Mother was supposed to demand the removal of both penis and testicles) to recognize that few priests could have survived any such procedure. But he shows that, feasible or not, the practice is anyway much less clearly attested in Roman literature than we like to think.

It would be interesting to hear more about this.

Lucian, De dea Syria, 51:

51. During these days they are made Galli. As the Galli sing and celebrate their orgies, frenzy falls on many of them and many who had come as mere spectators afterwards are found to have committed the great act. I will narrate what they do. Any young man who has resolved on this action, strips off his clothes, and with a loud shout bursts into the midst of the crowd, and picks up a sword from a number of swords which I suppose have been kept ready for many years for this purpose. He takes it and castrates himself and then runs wild through the city, bearing in his hands what he has cut off. He casts it into any house at will, and from this house he receives women’s raiment and ornaments. Thus they act during their ceremonies of castration.

Augustine, De civitate dei VI, 7:

There are sacred rites of the mother of the gods, in which the beautiful youth Atys, loved by her, and castrated by her through a woman’s jealousy, is deplored by men who have suffered the like calamity, whom they call Galli. … What good is to be thought of their sacred rites which are concealed in darkness, when those which are brought forth into the light are so detestable? And certainly they themselves have seen what they transact in secret through the agency of mutilated and effeminate men. Yet they have not been able to conceal those same men miserably and vile enervated and corrupted.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

ph2ter · 05-28-2010, 06:54 AM

From the review it looks that this book oversimplifies the whole problem of secrecy in old religions.
The religious taboos were powerful enough to prevent exposing their secret rituals or doctrines. Some information probably existed in a gossip form, but from the evidence we can see that nobody dared to write it down.
The practice of castration surely existed. It is enough only to remember the eunuchs as a widespread class of men in practically all ancient cultures.

Roger Pearse · 05-29-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

From the review it looks that this book oversimplifies the whole problem of secrecy in old religions.
The religious taboos were powerful enough to prevent exposing their secret rituals or doctrines. Some information probably existed in a gossip form, but from the evidence we can see that nobody dared to write it down.
The practice of castration surely existed. It is enough only to remember the eunuchs as a widespread class of men in practically all ancient cultures.

And indeed in modern days. There are audio recordings of some of the last of the castrati.

I'm wiling to believe the reason why the rituals were not recorded is that it was possible to be initiated while still not understanding them. Some of them were embarassing and humiliating to undergo, which the initiates would certainly be unwilling to admit to in public.

However if the book makes the point that not all types of religion are credal, that alone is a point worth making.

mountainman · 05-29-2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by ph2ter

From the review it looks that this book oversimplifies the whole problem of secrecy in old religions.
The religious taboos were powerful enough to prevent exposing their secret rituals or doctrines. Some information probably existed in a gossip form, but from the evidence we can see that nobody dared to write it down.
The practice of castration surely existed. It is enough only to remember the eunuchs as a widespread class of men in practically all ancient cultures.

And indeed in modern days. There are audio recordings of some of the last of the castrati.

I'm wiling to believe the reason why the rituals were not recorded is that it was possible to be initiated while still not understanding them. Some of them were embarassing and humiliating to undergo, which the initiates would certainly be unwilling to admit to in public.

However if the book makes the point that not all types of religion are credal, that alone is a point worth making.

Another point that's worth making here is that it is important to keep in mind that the stories about Origen's self castration are in reference to the Christian [Eusebian] Origen and not Origen the Pagan, a third-century Platonist philosopher . See this disambiguation thread.

Solo · 05-30-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

And indeed in modern days. There are audio recordings of some of the last of the castrati.

I'm wiling to believe the reason why the rituals were not recorded is that it was possible to be initiated while still not understanding them. Some of them were embarassing and humiliating to undergo, which the initiates would certainly be unwilling to admit to in public.

However if the book makes the point that not all types of religion are credal, that alone is a point worth making.

Another point that's worth making here is that it is important to keep in mind that the stories about Origen's self castration are in reference to the Christian [Eusebian] Origen ......

And yet another point worth making is that Eusebius, taking the nasty rumour about Origen at face value, likely overlooked Origen's Commentary on Matthew (XV., 1-5) which condemns the literal reading of the "made themselves eunuchs for the kingdon of heaven" (19:2).

Jiri

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05-28-2010, 06:54 AM	#4
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	From the review it looks that this book oversimplifies the whole problem of secrecy in old religions. The religious taboos were powerful enough to prevent exposing their secret rituals or doctrines. Some information probably existed in a gossip form, but from the evidence we can see that nobody dared to write it down. The practice of castration surely existed. It is enough only to remember the eunuchs as a widespread class of men in practically all ancient cultures.

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