Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Self-Mutation · 04-02-2008, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Self-Mutation

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/347/

The Twofold Prophecy

Before the rise of Islam, the Romans and the Persians were two competing superpowers. Romans were led by Heraclius (610–641 CE), a Christian Emperor, whereas the Persians were Zoroastrians led by Khosrow Parviz (reigned 590–628 CE), under whom the empire achieved its greatest expansion.

In 614, the Persians conquered Syria and Palestine, taking Jerusalem, destroying the Holy Sepulcher and the ‘True Cross’ carried to Ctesiphon. Then, in 619, they occupied Egypt and Libya. Heraclius met them at Thracian Heraclea (617 or 619), but they sought to capture him, and he rode madly back to Constantinople, hotly pursued.[2]

The Muslims were grieved by the Roman defeat as they felt spiritually closer to Christian Rome than Zoroastrian Persia, but the Meccans were naturally buoyed up by the victory of pagan Persia. To Meccans, the Roman humiliation was a sinister omen of the defeat of the Muslims at pagan hands. At the time God’s prophecy comforted the faithful:

“The Romans have been defeated - in a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious- within ten years. With God is the Decision, in the past and in the future: on that Day shall the believers rejoice with the help of God. He helps whom He will, and He is the Mighty, the Most-Merciful.” (Quran 30:2-4)

The Quran made a prophecy of two victories:

(i) The future Roman victory within ten years over Persians, something unimaginable at the time

(ii) The joy of the faithful on a victory over the pagans

Both of these prophecies actually occured.

In 622, Heraclius left Constantinople as prayers rose from its many sanctuaries for victory over the Persian Zoroastrians and the reconquest of Jerusalem. He devoted the next two years to campaigns in Armenia. In 627, he met the Persians near Nineveh. There, he killed three Persian generals in single combat, killed the Persian commander, and scattered the Persian host. A month later, Heraclius entered Dastagird with its stupendous treasure. Khosrow was overthrown by his son, who made peace with Heraclius. Returning to Constantinople in triumph, Heraclius was hailed as a hero.[3]

Also, in the year 624 AH, Muslims defeated the Meccans in the first and decisive Battle at Badr.

In the words of an Indian scholar:

“…a single line of prophecy was related to four nations and the fate of two great empires. All this proves the Holy Quran to be the Book of God.”[4]

You a Muslim now? Or are you trying to find a way to explain it away like the skeptics do?

When will you admit God doesn't interfere in the natural world and people write down vague things?

Ha, ha! Muhammed did not begin his revelations until 610 A.D. the Quran was not created until about 635 A.D. in other words these prophecies and "fulfillments" occured during the events and are very short ranged. The bible prophets foretold things thousands of years in advanced. They were long dead when most of the prophecies were fulfilled. You cannot even begin to compare the Quran with the bible. Can you cite one in the Quran, that fortold things to come thousand or hundreds of years away? And that have been fulfilled? No you cannot. There is no other Book like the Bible....there are no other prophets like the prophets of the Bible....There is no God besisdes the one revealed in the Bible. :wave:

In The Quran itself, within some of its chapters, it foretells events in the future that have come true; these are more commonly known as “prophecies”.

It tells the story of the Exodus from Egypt, in which Moses and the Hebrews enslaved to the Pharaoh of the time escape -

“We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea. Pharaoh and his troops pursued them, aggressively and sinfully. When drowning became a reality for him, he said, “I believe there is no god except in the One whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter. Too late! For you have rebelled already, and chose to be a transgressor. Today, we will preserve your body, to set you up as a lesson for future generations. Verily, many among mankind are totally oblivious to our signs.” (Holy Quran, from 10:90 to 10:92)

As you can see from the above passage, The Quran prophesises that the body of the Pharaoh will be preserved for future generations.

This was proved correct when the mummy of Merneptah (the Pharaoh of the Exodus) was discovered well preserved in 1898, and it can be seen on display in the Royal Mummies Room of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo.

Even though, this event occurred over 3000 years ago (more than 1600 years before Muhammad) according to both archaeological and Biblical data, the author of The Quran predicted that the body of the Pharaoh would be preserved as a sign for future generations, which is nowhere to be found in the Biblical version.

Dr Maurice Bucaille (who was chosen to examine the mummy) covers the above prophecy in detail in his book. Please refer to the Bibliography.

Agamemnon · 04-02-2008, 08:01 AM

Sugar, there are a myriad of fulfilled prophecies ranging from mythologies to contempotrary modern literature.

With enough selective interpretation, any Tom, Dick and Harry can make the case for prophetic fulfilment.

I would only be impressed with your bible if each and everyone of it's valid prophecies was fulfilled.

Courtesy of faithskeptic, Here is just a short list of failed biblical prophesies:

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now extinct.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Yet there are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

Self-Mutation · 04-02-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sugar, there are a myriad of fulfilled prophecies ranging from mythologies to contempotrary modern literature.

With enough selective interpretation, any Tom, Dick and Harry can make the case for prophetic fulfilment.

I would only be impressed with your bible if each and everyone of it's valid prophecies was fulfilled.

Courtesy of faithskeptic, Here is just a short list of failed biblical prophesies:

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now extinct.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Yet there are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

Don't worry. He views God as an idiot who can't predict the future properly. He even admitted it in his first post. He said "Daniel doesn't come out and say it, but the angel Gabriel gives us hints."

LOL! "Hints" from an all-knowing God who can predict these things like nothing?

This is why I say God is beyond prophecy. Sugar doesn't understand this. I am confident he will one day though.

Joe Bloe · 04-02-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

And also the fact that there were documents in existence that enabled the Council "to choose" between them shows well that they did not "create" the bible, because the documents were already in existence. Also the early christians had these documents as well. (The Gospels originated from them and not the Council)

Yes, there were many documents, including many gospels in addition to the four that one group of early Christians chose from among the many possibilities. Other groups chose other documents to include in their versions of the Bible. There were many competing versions of Christianity from the beginning, and many versions of the Bible. The one that "won" was the one favored by Emperor Constantine, which won because it had the backing of the Roman Empire which could promote it and suppress the rest. That group (the early Catholic church) continued as the only surviving version of Christianity until it split into the Catholic and Orthodox versions, each of which claimed (and still claim) to be the legitimate heir of the correct original version of Christianity. Then a group of protesters in Germany broke off from the Catholics, followed by multiple splinterings among these Protestants which are still increasing the number of versions and interpretations and understandings of Christianity and its various versions of the Bible today. Your version is just one of many, and it is a more recently developed version than some others.

Quote:

The KJV is the best translation we have, the other books contains many errors ... If the early christians were here today they would choose the KJV.

How do you know that? Are you a linguistic scholar who can fluently read Hebrew and Greek? Or are you relying on the arguments and opinions of humans? Or are you relying on your own subjective responses when you read or hear the KJV, responses that were socially inculcated in you?

Quote:

and the Catholic bible includes other books which are not considered true.

The Catholics considered them true. That's why they included them. Other groups did not consider them true; that's why those other groups did not include them.

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The KJV is the best translation we have, the other books contains many errors, and the Catholic bible includes other books which are not considered true. If the early christians were here today they would choose the KJV.

Well there we have it. The KJV is the Best of the Best translations :rolling: The translation of the Latin translation is better. Even though these translators never got to read the any of the older Greek copies, nor several of the oldest codex’s for comparative analysis; nor got to go over the oldest Hebrew texts we have from the dead sea scrolls. Probably the only worse translation is the Young Readers Bible…this pretty much explains the brick wall…

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus Long

The prophecy did not say "by the Arabs", it is implied that it would be by "my community", ie, followers of Islam. Do you happen to know what religion the Ottoman empire was? Do you need a hint? How about that crescent moon on the Empire's flag?

To be precise, this particular prophecy was not in the Qu'ran, it is contained in one of the many Hadith about Muhammad.

What is "grammer?" I said "grammar."

LL

The Hadiths are Oral reports about things that Muhammed supposedly did or said. The prophecies of the biblical prohets were written down on documents immediatly following these revelations unlike the Hadiths. So tell me when did this Hadith prophecy show up on an actual document?

Of course sugarhitman has zero evidence that Daniel was actually penned circa 600 BCE. And even his fellow believers can’t agree as to when it was written. But it is a fact in his worldview…

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/intro.htm

Quote:

This work was composed during the bitter persecution carried on by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (167-164) and was written to strengthen and comfort the Jewish people in their ordeal.
The Book contains stories originating in and transmitted by popular traditions which tell of the trials and triumphs of the wise Daniel and his three companions. The moral is that men of faith can resist temptation and conquer adversity. The characters are not purely legendary but rest on older historical tradition. What is more important than the question of historicity, and closer to the intention of the author, is the fact that a persecuted Jew of the second century B.C. would quickly see the application of these stories to his own plight.

Quote:

And by the way "my community" is contained in brackets so which shows to me that it is not original or least added later.

Care to apply the same standards you your own holy books? Some how I doubt it. Shall we start listing all the verses that have footnote, or brackets indicating that they were not in the earliest copies? That could be fun…

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Sugar, there are a myriad of fulfilled prophecies ranging from mythologies to contempotrary modern literature.

With enough selective interpretation, any Tom, Dick and Harry can make the case for prophetic fulfilment.

I would only be impressed with your bible if each and everyone of it's valid prophecies was fulfilled.

Courtesy of faithskeptic, Here is just a short list of failed biblical prophesies:

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now extinct.

Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Yet there are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

It seams sugar’s list is growing, as he has wave his hand and summarily dismissed trying to explain the below failures of his god as well:

Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Ge 48:3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
1 Chronicals 16:16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac; 16:17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant, 16:18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;

funinspace · 04-02-2008, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The Hadiths are Oral reports about things that Muhammed supposedly did or said. The prophecies of the biblical prohets were written down on documents immediatly following these revelations unlike the Hadiths. So tell me when did this Hadith prophecy show up on an actual document?

And by the way "my community" is contained in brackets so which shows to me that it is not original or least added later.

Maybe we should talk about the later addition of Mark 16:9-20 or John 7:53--8:11. Or the dozens of others…

http://www.bible-researcher.com/adult.html
Biblical scholars are nearly all agreed that the Story of the Adulteress (also known as the Pericope Adulterae or the Pericope de Adultera) usually printed in Bibles as John 7:53-8:11 is a later addition to the Gospel. On this page I present some extended quotations from scholarly works that explain the reasons for this judgment. On another page I give an extract from one of the few scholarly defenders of the passage. To give my own opinion, it seems clear to me that the story does not belong in the Bible

http://faith.propadeutic.com/analysis2.html
Scribes would also sometimes make additions to the text in order to explain or clarify it, or else to balance out a thought.
• Romans 11:6
o Alex.: If [it is] by grace, then it is no longer from work; otherwise grace becomes no longer grace.
o Byz.: If [it is] by grace, then it is no longer from work; otherwise grace becomes no longer grace. But if from work, it is no longer grace; then work is no longer work.
• Romans 14:6
o Alex.: The one who regards a day regards [it] for the Lord.
o Byz.: The one who regards a day regards [it] for the Lord, and the one who disregards a day disregards [it] for the Lord.
• 1 Corinthians 7:39
o Alex.: A woman is bound as long as her husband lives.
o Byz.: A woman is bound by law as long as her husband lives.
• 1 John 4:19
o Alex.: We love because He first loved us.
o Byz.: We love Him because He first loved us.

sugarhitman · 04-02-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The Hadiths are Oral reports about things that Muhammed supposedly did or said. The prophecies of the biblical prohets were written down on documents immediatly following these revelations unlike the Hadiths. So tell me when did this Hadith prophecy show up on an actual document?

Of course sugarhitman has zero evidence that Daniel was actually penned circa 600 BCE. And even his fellow believers can’t agree as to when it was written. But it is a fact in his worldview…

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/intro.htm

Quote:

And by the way "my community" is contained in brackets so which shows to me that it is not original or least added later.

Care to apply the same standards you your own holy books? Some how I doubt it. Shall we start listing all the verses that have footnote, or brackets indicating that they were not in the earliest copies? That could be fun…

Daniels prediction of the 4th kingdom kills your arguement because the division of Rome was completed in 476 A.D. and the fact that another people have yet to conquer the Europeans is another fact that puts the final nail into the coffin of this "written afterwards" nonsense. You will never disprove Daniel because the present fulfillment of his predictions will not allow you. Bye :wave:

Self-Mutation · 04-02-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Of course sugarhitman has zero evidence that Daniel was actually penned circa 600 BCE. And even his fellow believers can’t agree as to when it was written. But it is a fact in his worldview…

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/daniel/intro.htm

Care to apply the same standards you your own holy books? Some how I doubt it. Shall we start listing all the verses that have footnote, or brackets indicating that they were not in the earliest copies? That could be fun…

Daniels prediction of the 4th kingdom kills your arguement because the division of Rome was completed in 476 A.D. and the fact that another people have yet to conquer the Europeans is another fact that puts the final nail into the coffin of this "written afterwards" nonsense. You will never disprove Daniel because the present fulfillment of his predictions will not allow you. Bye :wave:

Can you please post the exact verse that makes you think it was predicted so accurately? Did Daniel say the division of Rome will happen in 476 A.D.? Or did he just say something would happen in the future?

is there a time date and specific names of what exactly will happen? Or are you just looking around the world and going "Aha! See! this could be what Daniel meant!!!"

Please stop making God look foolish.

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04-02-2008, 08:01 AM	#72
Agamemnon Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Maravi Posts: 95	Sugar, there are a myriad of fulfilled prophecies ranging from mythologies to contempotrary modern literature. With enough selective interpretation, any Tom, Dick and Harry can make the case for prophetic fulfilment. I would only be impressed with your bible if each and everyone of it's valid prophecies was fulfilled. Courtesy of faithskeptic, Here is just a short list of failed biblical prophesies: Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. The Canaanite language has never been spoken in Egypt, and is now extinct. Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. Yet there are uncircumcised people living in Jerusalem even today. Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. Damascus is still inhabited today with over a million people, and hardly a ruinous heap.

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