Freethought & Rationalism Archive

vid · 02-01-2009, 10:14 AM

It seems apparent to me that earliest christianity doesn't mix too well with family values: Paul says it would be better to not have wives at all, and to have them just to "prevent fornication" (masturbation?); Jesus speaks about abstaining from sex up to castration (as understood by portion of early christian); Jesus commands christians to give up all their property and go on spreading christianity; etc... All of these would be quite a problem for normal family life.

So, do you know when exactly did christianity take over the stamp of "family values" it has now. Was there something similar predating christianity, or did this notion develop inside christian society, or was it brought into greek and later roman society from jewish laws?

Also, if you know about some passages of early christian texts that are evidently supporting (or contradicting, like cited examples) family values ideas, please mention them.

semiopen · 02-01-2009, 03:19 PM

I wouldn't mind knowing when the founding father's of the US became devout Christians.

Buck Laser · 02-01-2009, 03:31 PM

What the wingers call "family values" have NOTHING to do with loving human relations.

FwL · 02-01-2009, 05:12 PM

Is there some place that gives a clear definition of "family values"?

This is one of those phrases that gets thrown around a lot without ever really being nailed down.

Toto · 02-01-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

...

So, do you know when exactly did christianity take over the stamp of "family values" it has now.

"Family values" AFAIK is a euphemism developed around 1980 to refer to socially and sexually conservative political values, the sort that leftists would refer to as "the patriarchy." Wikipedia attribtes the popularity of the phrase to Dan Quail.

But there's nothing especially Christian about conservative family values, and nothing particulary conservative about supporting some family values, such as education and nutrition.

Quote:

Was there something similar predating christianity, or did this notion develop inside christian society, or was it brought into greek and later roman society from jewish laws?

If you are actually concerned about family values in the period of time that this forum is concerned about, the best source is probably Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Uta Ranke-Heinemann. Ranke-Heineman traces the general Christian aversion to sex and women to the gnostics; she claims that Judaism has always been pro-family and pro-sex, but that the Christians picked up a distate for worldly things, including sexual pleasure, from the gnostics, many of whom were opposed to marriage, sex, and child birth.

Ranke-Heinemann is noted for claiming that Jesus must have been married, since that was the norm for Jewish men of his age; if he had not been married, that would be so unusual that someone would have mentioned it.

Quote:

Also, if you know about some passages of early christian texts that are evidently supporting (or contradicting, like cited examples) family values ideas, please mention them.

From here:

Quote:

Joseph Martos is the author of a highly regarded work on the sacraments called Doors to the Sacred, A Historical Introduction to Sacraments in the Catholic Church (or via: amazon.co.uk). In that work, he writes, “During the first three centuries of Christianity, churchmen had no legal say in the matter of marriages, divorces, and remarriages.” Furthermore, he wrote, “There was no liturgical ceremony for marriage as there was for baptism and the Eucharist.” It wasn’t until the year 400 or so, that Christians were bidden to seek an ecclesiastical blessing on their marriages. (It is interesting to note that the only ones obliged to do that were married bishops, married priests and married deacons.) As far as we know, the idea of marriage as a sacrament was first proposed by St. Augustine, the first and only patristic author to write extensively about sex and marriage. Even after Augustine, through the seventh century, “Christians could still get married in a purely secular ceremony.” Marriage was declared a sacrament for the first time by the Synod of Verona in 1184. The Church didn’t deem marriage definitely indissoluble until the Council of Florence in 1439. (Martos, pp. 409-434.)

St Augustine

vid · 02-02-2009, 03:46 AM

Thanks Toto.

Quote:

If you are actually concerned about family values in the period of time that this forum is concerned about, the best source is probably Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church by Uta Ranke-Heinemann. Ranke-Heineman traces the general Christian aversion to sex and women to the gnostics; she claims that Judaism has always been pro-family and pro-sex, but that the Christians picked up a distate for worldly things, including sexual pleasure, from the gnostics, many of whom were opposed to marriage, sex, and child birth.

Does this refer to some "non-christian gnostics"? Because if it referred to christian gnostics, then they would obviously have to predate authors of biblical text, in order to influence them. I remember reading that this "distate for worldly things" was taken from neoplatonism, but didn't study it any further yet.

mountainman · 02-02-2009, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Does this refer to some "non-christian gnostics"? Because if it referred to christian gnostics, then they would obviously have to predate authors of biblical text, in order to influence them. I remember reading that this "distate for worldly things" was taken from neoplatonism, but didn't study it any further yet.

Dear vid,

One source on this "distate for worldly things" would be Philo Judaeus: On Ascetics, but you are IMO correct in mentioning that the basic tennants of the Pythagorean tradition involve ascetic practices, including the proverbial "vow of silence", and vegetarianism.

Best wishes,

Pete

Berthold · 02-02-2009, 08:14 AM

I find it quite plausible (it has been mentioned e. g. by Peter de Rosa) that some of the rather impractical things commanded in the Gospels (such as, "give away all you have") were meant in a context of apocalyptic expectation.

Somehow, life had to go on when apocalypse didn't come.

Toto · 02-02-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

Thanks Toto.

Quote:

If you are actually concerned about family values in the period of time that this forum is concerned about, the best source is probably Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality and the Catholic Church by Uta Ranke-Heinemann. Ranke-Heinemann traces the general Christian aversion to sex and women to the gnostics; she claims that Judaism has always been pro-family and pro-sex, but that the Christians picked up a distate for worldly things, including sexual pleasure, from the gnostics, many of whom were opposed to marriage, sex, and child birth.

Does this refer to some "non-christian gnostics"? Because if it referred to christian gnostics, then they would obviously have to predate authors of biblical text, in order to influence them. I remember reading that this "distate for worldly things" was taken from neoplatonism, but didn't study it any further yet.

Ranke-Heinemann is concerned with later church policy, which is anti-sex and anti-women. It's been a while since I read the book, but I don't think she dconsiders what is written in the gospels as anti-sex or anti-family. I think I remember that she discusses Christian and non-Christian gnostic schools of thought, but I could be mistaken.

The modern view is that gnostic may not even be a useful category. There were various schools of thought in early Christianity, and in the Greco-Roman world that influenced Christianity. The final form that we have of the gospels is probably the end result of some theological conflict and editorial decisions.

mountainman · 02-02-2009, 07:35 PM

Family values like "wisdom literature" were stolen by the branch of the christians from the tree of the pagans.

02-01-2009, 10:14 AM	#1
vid Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Myjava, Slovakia Posts: 384	How did family values become part of christianity It seems apparent to me that earliest christianity doesn't mix too well with family values: Paul says it would be better to not have wives at all, and to have them just to "prevent fornication" (masturbation?); Jesus speaks about abstaining from sex up to castration (as understood by portion of early christian); Jesus commands christians to give up all their property and go on spreading christianity; etc... All of these would be quite a problem for normal family life. So, do you know when exactly did christianity take over the stamp of "family values" it has now. Was there something similar predating christianity, or did this notion develop inside christian society, or was it brought into greek and later roman society from jewish laws? Also, if you know about some passages of early christian texts that are evidently supporting (or contradicting, like cited examples) family values ideas, please mention them.

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02-01-2009, 03:19 PM	#2
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I wouldn't mind knowing when the founding father's of the US became devout Christians.

02-01-2009, 03:31 PM	#3
Buck Laser Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 565	What the wingers call "family values" have NOTHING to do with loving human relations.

02-01-2009, 05:12 PM	#4
FwL Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 10	Is there some place that gives a clear definition of "family values"? This is one of those phrases that gets thrown around a lot without ever really being nailed down.

02-02-2009, 08:14 AM	#8
Berthold Veteran Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Vienna, AUSTRIA Posts: 6,147	I find it quite plausible (it has been mentioned e. g. by Peter de Rosa) that some of the rather impractical things commanded in the Gospels (such as, "give away all you have") were meant in a context of apocalyptic expectation. Somehow, life had to go on when apocalypse didn't come.

02-02-2009, 07:35 PM	#10
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Family values like "wisdom literature" were stolen by the branch of the christians from the tree of the pagans.

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