Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 03-17-2010, 02:58 PM

Yes, the Bible teaches that the earth is flat. Consider the following:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/flatearth.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert J. Shadewald

The Order of Creation

The Genesis creation story provides the first key to the Hebrew cosmology. The order of creation makes no sense from a conventional perspective but is perfectly logical from a flat-earth viewpoint. The earth was created on the first day, and it was "without form and void (Genesis 1:2)." On the second day, a vault, the "firmament" of the King James version, was created to divide the waters, some being above and some below the vault. Only on the fourth day were the sun, moon, and stars created, and they were placed "in" (not "above") the vault.

The Vault of Heaven

The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word "firmament" appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning "beaten out." In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, "Can you beat out (raqa) the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?"

The Hebrew word raqiya appears five times in Ezekiel, four times in Ezekiel 1:22-26 and once in Ezekiel 10:1. In each case the context requires a literal vault or dome. The vault appears above the "living creatures" and glitters "like a sheet of ice." Above the vault is a throne of sapphire.... Seated on the throne is "a form in human likeness," which is radiant and "like the appearance of the glory of the Lord." In short, Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting throned on the vault of heaven, as described in Isaiah 40:22.

Obviously, it is impossible to beat out a sphere.

Without any knowledge of science, it was quite natural for Old Testament writers to falsely believe that the earth is flat. If God told Old Testament writers that the earth is round, they would probably have been quite surprised (who wouldn't have been surprised at that time?), and as a result one would think that they would have tried to clearly distinguish their writings from all other contemporary writings that must have claimed that the earth is flat, but they didn't.

Deus Ex · 03-17-2010, 03:51 PM

The New Testament implies a flat earth as well.

Matt. 4:7,8

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Must have been a mighty tall mountain to see all the kingdoms.

arnoldo · 03-17-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

The New Testament implies a flat earth as well.

Matt. 4:7,8

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Must have been a mighty tall mountain to see all the kingdoms.

The following verse proves this as well;

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

That cross must've been quite tall.

Johnny Skeptic · 03-17-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The following verse proves this as well;

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

That cross must've been quite tall.

Irrelevant. Please stay on topic. In the past, you have accused skeptics of getting off-topic. Please practice what you preach, and show skeptics the same courtesy and respect that you want from them when you start threads. Your attempt to derail this thread will not work.

Toto · 03-17-2010, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...

The following verse proves this as well;

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

That cross must've been quite tall.

arnoldo: is this a serious suggestion or are you sneaking in a Bible verse? I do not see this as having any reference to the shape of the earth, but you may have a different interpretation.

schriverja · 03-17-2010, 06:52 PM

The Bible implies that the stars will fall from the sky, which presumably would only work if they were suspended like lights from a big ceiling. See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...31&version=NIV. What I find most interesting is that this passage, which is attributed to Jesus, tweaks the language from the original Isaiah passage (13:10), which could be interpreted more obviously in a way that doesn't completely go against modern cosmology. Isaiah 34:4 gives a passage that would show an incorrect understanding of how our sky is actually constructed...

archaeologist · 03-17-2010, 07:46 PM

I do not know if i should rallyparticipate inthis thread. It is clear that none of you are allowing the Biblical writers the same license you allow secular works and distort what is being said in the Bible to say the Bible is teaching something it is not.

Quote:

Without any knowledge of science, it was quite natural for Old Testament writers to falsely believe that the earth is flat. If God told Old Testament writers that the earth is round, they would probably have been quite surprised (who wouldn't have been surprised at that time?), and as a result one would think that they would have tried to clearly distinguish their writings from all other contemporary writings that must have claimed that the earth is flat, but they didn't.

Quote:

Must have been a mighty tall mountain to see all the kingdoms.

you two would be quite wrong and it is clear that you are not being hoest when you say such things. You know as well as I do that all people talk about the sun rising or setting, eventhough it doe snot do so. Also you know that sailors talk about sailing to the four corners of the world and there are more such sayings.

Your refusal to allow the Biblical writers, and God, to use metphors and other language tools shows that you should not be part of any debate or discussion for you are purposefully misapplying what is being said for no gain except to trash the Bible.

Quote:

The Bible implies that the stars will fall from the sky

Yet in the modern age we hear of 'shooting stars', 'falling stars' from the secular world without complaint from the likes of you.

Clearly what you people do not understand is that the Bible is using words that all people will understand, even you and are not teaching that the world is flat but aiding comprehension of the message being taught.

arnoldo · 03-17-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...

The following verse proves this as well;

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

That cross must've been quite tall.

arnoldo: is this a serious suggestion or are you sneaking in a Bible verse? I do not see this as having any reference to the shape of the earth, but you may have a different interpretation.

If the earth is flat a person lifted up on a very tall cross will be visible to all people.

The same concept is expressed in the following post;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

The New Testament implies a flat earth as well.

Matt. 4:7,8

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Must have been a mighty tall mountain to see all the kingdoms.

Toto · 03-17-2010, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

...
If the earth is flat a person lifted up on a very tall cross will be visible to all people...

That's a strange interpretation. I would assume that the verse is a reference to Jesus being lifted up to the heavens, and that "drawing all men" does not require that they be able to see him simultaneously.

Certainly Jesus was not lifted up onto a particularly tall cross, and "all men" were not drawn to him until after his resurrection, at least.

ApostateAbe · 03-17-2010, 08:40 PM

The Old Testament seems to use language that indicates a flat Earth--the pillars of the Earth and so on. I very much doubt that the New Testament assumes a flat Earth, simply because the writers of the New Testament were educated Greeks who very likely knew better. The spherical Earth model was common knowledge of the time. A belief in a flat Earth is not required in order for an author in the first-century west to believe that someone can see all the kingdoms from a high mountain. He would need only a poor and limited sense of geography--he knew little of India and nothing of China, Japan or the Americas.

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03-17-2010, 03:51 PM	#2
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	The New Testament implies a flat earth as well. Matt. 4:7,8 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Must have been a mighty tall mountain to see all the kingdoms.

03-17-2010, 06:52 PM	#6
schriverja Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Connecticut Posts: 1,545	The Bible implies that the stars will fall from the sky, which presumably would only work if they were suspended like lights from a big ceiling. See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...31&version=NIV. What I find most interesting is that this passage, which is attributed to Jesus, tweaks the language from the original Isaiah passage (13:10), which could be interpreted more obviously in a way that doesn't completely go against modern cosmology. Isaiah 34:4 gives a passage that would show an incorrect understanding of how our sky is actually constructed...

03-17-2010, 08:40 PM	#10
ApostateAbe Contributor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: MT Posts: 10,656	The Old Testament seems to use language that indicates a flat Earth--the pillars of the Earth and so on. I very much doubt that the New Testament assumes a flat Earth, simply because the writers of the New Testament were educated Greeks who very likely knew better. The spherical Earth model was common knowledge of the time. A belief in a flat Earth is not required in order for an author in the first-century west to believe that someone can see all the kingdoms from a high mountain. He would need only a poor and limited sense of geography--he knew little of India and nothing of China, Japan or the Americas.

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