outhouse

I would place your knowledge over his

we have a much broader knwoledge base, for hundreds of years before and after he did not have.


not only that he was to far removed from jesus death to be used for any sort of historicity in which he uses the same sources we do.

he lived pseudoscience and believed with all his heart, enough so he was sick in the head. We do not live anything like that nut


jesus death has little historicity other then being on a cross, getting into details is worthless as is claiming Origen had any credible knowledge on the topic

Sheshbazzar

You may note the small 'c' on 'catholicisim', when thus used it is not a reference to the beliefs of 'The 'Catholic Church', rather the original Greek sense of the word as to being 'universal' or 'what has been commonly accepted'.

It is 'catholic' or 'commonly accepted' that 'Jesus died on a cross'. All who accept that catholic paradigm hold the 'catholic' belief regarding it.
Used in this way it has nothing at all to do with being a member or follower of The Holy Roman Catholic Church's form of religion.
Even atheists, or Buddhists, or Muslims, or Shintoists, that accept the premise that 'Jesus died on a cross' are 'catholic in their view on that matter.
Thus when I wrote; "Not everyone buys catholicism." it was a statement that down through history there have always been those who do not buy 'what has been commonly accepted'. That being that 'Jesus died on a cross'

All MJers that believe that these stories are total myths, and that no Jesus of the Gospels was actually crucified, are by default non-catholic in their opinion.

Any sect of Christianity that taught or teaches that someone else died on the cross in Jesus place, and he escaped is also non-catholic (because that is not the 'commonly held' opinion)

Conversely anyone without exception, that accepts the premise; 'Jesus died on a cross' is 'catholic' (because that is the 'commonly accepted' ( or catholic) opinion.

You, outhouse, on account of following the popular and 'commonly held opinion' on the manner of Jesus death, are 'catholic' on this matter.
Doesn't mean or imply that you joined or accept The Catholic Faith or Church, just that on this particular matter you 'go with the flow'.
Your position on the matter is 'orthodox'. My position on that same matter is unorthodox.

Chili

These were the church fathers and are just getting their ducks in a row to fortify the gates of heaven. And there was no cross and there is no history attached to metamorphosis, but they were building the foundation of a church open the rock of faith that needs iconic metaphors to draw the people in.

Iconic means to bear witness to truth that knowns no history, and the fact that they claim to be Infillible should tell you that, as a necessary condition to be not historical but the leading edge on knowledge throughout the age.

sotto voce

Yes, indeed. It is Catholic to keep the bugger there.

Here is a summary of the advice given in the imperial court, first by a Greek, then by a Jew.

"In view of the fact that we are quite unable to persuade the plebs that Jesus did not die, the best thing we can do is admit that he died, but change the significance of the death, and neutralise the moralising effect that gives us problems."

"More than that, we can arrogate to ourselves this power, so that we define the morality, and take initiative and control of the whole process— just as with the present imperial religions. It will be a case of, the more things change, the more they are the same."

Chili

Sure, and just leave him hanging there. The moralizing effect religion has sure is not Catholic except inside the church when they 'park their sins' on the abutments of the church to fortify the sanctuary of their own mind (except maybe in England where 'piety' rules the church).

On this cathedral the flying butresses is where parishioners 'parked' their sins before they went inside. Now that they take their position on these supports suggests that 'human sin' is the strenght the church within the religion they call Catholic, and have confessionals inside to prove this true; for Catholics only, to be sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Joh...-Hertogenbosch

Here is more: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...n_Sint_Jan.jpg
And more little devils here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alje/4814727953/

There is also this famous "erwtemannetje" displayed on the walls of the St. John where a prankster 'kicks the peapot' to spill the peas in it.

Then I should maybe add that this church survived the great iconoclast.

And then, just to remind you, that Catholics are not Jesus worshipers for sure.

outhouse

im not taking the catholic opinion at all. catholics denounce historical jesus in favor of biblical jesus

the same way others have faith in their mythical jesus


because one concept lines up does not mean its catholic, my view is that a 100% mortal man was put on and died upon the cross.

The catholic view is that a god was placed upon the cross, therefor, your wrong

Sheshbazzar

That 'Jesus died on the cross' is catholic opinion.

The ancient Greek word -catholic- means 'commonly accepted'

'catholic' = 'commonly accepted'

It's not rocket science.

If you say, or believe that; 'Jesus died on the cross'. That is the 'catholic' ('commonly accepted') statement and view.

If you say; 'Hitler was a immoral monster'. That is the 'catholic' ('commonly accepted') statement and view.

If you say; 'The Titanic hit a iceberg and sank' That is the 'catholic' ('commonly accepted') statement and view.

Conversely, if you say 'The Titanic was actually sunk by a giant squid', that would be a 'non-catholic' ('not commonly accepted') statement and view.

The Greek loan word 'catholic' has nothing to do with being associated with The Roman Catholic Church or its beliefs when used in this manner.

The Greek word 'catholic' was part of the Greek language long before Christianity or 'The Catholic Church' was ever thought of.

It is one of the words that Latin speaking Rome -'borrowed'- from the ancient Greek language.

It is a foreign loan word that was adopted by 'The Roman Catholic Church'.

If you are of the opinion (commonly accepted = 'catholic') that; 'Jesus died on the cross'
It is ipso facto a commonly accepted (catholic) opinion and statement.

Tell me that you DON'T believe 'Jesus died on a cross' and your view and statement will then be non-catholic.



Shades of Reader's Digest's "Towards More Picturesque Speech"
To learn a word, and how it is properly used.
Some people choose to become better educated, others may choose to remain ignorant. The choice here is to the reader.

outhouse

I do not believe a half man half god died on a cross, and that is the catholic view

aa5874

You BELIEVE your OWN Invention. You fabricate your own Catholic Beliefs.

It is TOTALLY ERRONEOUS that Catholics believe Jesus was a Half man Half God.--Total Nonsense.

Jesus was the BEGOTTEN Son of God BEFORE the world was even made.

The Catholics Believe Jesus is VERY GOD of VERY GOD.

Examine the Nicene Creed.

Chili

NO! The Catholic view is that Jesus was both God and man and that Jesus was crucified and had to die on the cross.

Now good advise here is to never ask a sheep if it knows where it is going, to say that common Catholic belief may not give you the details of the plot.

A closer look will tell you that Christ was born and they called him Jesus. The proper question here would be to ask: who exactly is this so called Jesus.

He so then is the God-man with a dual personality of which only the 'Jesus factor' was crucified to die. Then also notice that the son-of-God was set free prior to the actual crucifixion event by Pilate-in-charge upon the demand made by the Jews and called him Bar-abbas to isolate and set free the son of God as man.

Hence, only the ego was crucified and is why they cast lots over his Hebrew coat (and please notice no 'camel-hair' coat on him such as in Mark), and they removed his sense perception only to crucify the second human nature of the man.