sampath

"I am the way, truth and Life.Nobody reaches my father except through me" said Jesus.

what is this "THE WAY"?It is having relationship with jesus.This is what jesus called as "the way".Except this there is no other way.This is the only way to heaven.All other ways are wrong and false. :down:

Who is this "Me?".It refers only to jesus,son of mary who lived in palestine from 5th century BCE to 32 AD.Without faith on jesus NOBODY can reach heaven.

Thus unbelieving children,people who have not heard and prophets of previous era could have never reached heaven.After saying "Faith alone saves" church cannot say "date of birth saves". :wave:

Did Moses and Abraham knew jesus?They knew the father but that wasnt enough.They had to have a relationship with the son.Old testament never mentions this.If they knew jesus by their magical power then why did they keep it a secret and not tell about it to the rest of the world? :huh:

If people who knew the father and not the son reach heaven then what about religions that worship the father and not son like judaism and islam?

So saying prophets of previous era and unbelieving children reach heaven is against the 'born again' concept, 'faith alone saves' concept and 'way truth and life concept' :thumbs:

Gavriel

A lot of Xtians believe the gates of heaven were closed UNTILL Jebus died for the sins of the world, at that time all the old righteous patriarchs and figures of the OT were allowed entrance.

"Old testament never mentions this"

Most Xtians believe the OT mentions plenty about Jebus. Never by name of course

But it's all moot to me really, Abraham, Noah, and Moses are doing fine in the Jewish religion.

drewjmore

Quite true. Of course Jesus himself tells us that Abraham is in heaven in Luke 16:

"20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Of course, John's gospel tells us first & foremost that Jesus was the 'word' made flesh. So 'me'=God's word. That's where modern christian fundamentalists get it wrong. (or wronger than the other christians, anyway)

Overcomer

Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, followers of God went to Abraham's Bosom while those who rejected God went to Hades just as the passage drew quoted says.

Why didn't followers of God go straight to heaven to be with him when they died?

They couldn't. God cannot have sin living with him in heaven. The O.T. saints had sacrificed animals because of their sins. But these sacrifices only covered a man's sin. They didn't remove it. Therefore, O.T. saints were still sinners and couldn't go directly to God.

Only a sin-free man could atone for the sins of mankind. There is, of course, no such thing. The only sin-free being in the universe is God himself. So Christ came and, as God was sin-free, and, as man, could die for men's sin. His death and resurrection brought atonement by which the sins of his children were removed, not just covered up. It is by faith that a Christian receives Christ's righteousness in exchange for his or her sins.

When Christ died, he went to Sheol (which consists of Abraham's Bosom and Hades) to reveal himself to those who had rejected God (1 Peter 3:18-20) and to collect those who followed God to take to heaven (Ephesians 4:7-10).

Therefore, the souls of Old Testament saints are now in heaven. Those of people who rejected God are are still in Hades and will remain there until after the millenial reign of Christ at which point it and its inhabitants will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14).

People in the Old Testament only saw Jesus in the occasional Christophany (eg. the fourth "man" in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and the "angel" with whom Jacob wrestled). But his coming was prophesied over and over and over.

In the Old Testament, it was people's faith in God and the fact Christ was coming that was at the heart of their love for and obedience to the Lord. It's that faith that saved them.

Wallener

This is, of course, not only ridiculous in concept, it is in complete contradiction to the word of G-d as revealed through the Hebrew texts.

gregor

Overcomer

Perhaps you can explain how pre-exilic Jews did not believe in a soul or life after death. Plently of OT versus talk about death as the end of all existence.

Then, after the exile and exposure to Zarathrustrian religion in Persia, the idea of life after death and post-death reward and punishment arose.

Then, after exposure to Greek influence, the idea of an immportal soul arose.

Perhaps you should read Segal, Life After Death : A History of the Afterlife in Western Religion before you opine again.