Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 11-10-2010, 08:09 PM

Along with the Codex Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus, Codex Alexandrinus is one of the earliest and most complete Greek manuscripts of the Bible. One curious feature of this physical manuscript that I would like to discuss is the report that the name of "Thecla" appears thus:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

According to an Arabic note on the reverse of the first volume of the manuscript, the manuscript was written by the hand of Thecla, the martyr, a notable lady of Egypt, a little later than the Council of Nice (A.D. 325).[7][69]

Tregelles made another suggestion, the New Testament volume has long been mutilated, and begins now in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, in which chapter the lesson for Thecla's Day stands. "We cannot be sure how the story arose. It may be that the manuscript was written in a monastery dedicated to Thecla."[69]

Tregelles thought that Thecla's name might have on this account been written in the margin above, which has been cut off, and that therefore the Egyptians imagined that Thecla had written it.[70]

Cyril Lucaris believed in Thecla's authorship, but the codex cannot be older than from late 4th century.[36]

I have not yet examined the academic commentary about the appearance of this "Thecla" reference on this codex, but intend to soon. Nevertheless, in advance of my reading, some questions that I have are ......

Question (1)

How can this "Thecla" be described as a "martyr" after the Council of Nicaea, since isn't it generally accepted that this sort of stuff was eliminated by Constantine's Christian presence "ante pacem". i.e. from after 312 CE?

Question (2)

Who was the most famous of all "Thecla's" in the epoch when this (then high technology) codex was manufactured, or

Question (3)

Who was the "Thecla" so mentioned?

Question (4)

When was the "mention" physically written in Arabic?

Toto · 11-11-2010, 12:00 AM

If you follow the footnotes in the wikipedia article, you will find the answers to your questions and you will see that the wiki editor has not fully represented the confusion in the source.

Footnote 7 takes you to the google books version of Six Lectures on the Text of the New Testament and the Ancient Manuscripts ... By Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener.

Quote:

p. 50-1
. . . Cyril [Lucar] had bought the book from Alexandria, where had before been Patriarch, and had himself inserted and subscribed in it a note importing that he had learnt from tradition that it was written by the hand of Thecla, a noble lady of Egypt, thirteen hundred years before, a little later than the Council of Nice, AD 325. This information he seems to have obtained from an Arabic inscription on the reverse of the first leaf on the manuscript, also ascribing it to Thecla the martyr, … Its connection to Thecla is less easy to be accounted for. A holy lady of that name was an early martyr for our faith, far to early indeed to be the writer of the book, and a namesake of hers, a friend of the great Gregory of Nazianzus in the fourth century, whom the probable date of the writing might suit, is not known to have been a martyr. Hence one is inclined to acquiesce in the acute conjecture of Dr. Tregelles, that whereas the New Testament portion of Codex A begins at Matt. Xxv. 6, which in the Greek Church forms a part of the proper less for the festival of that wise virgin S. Thecla, her name once stood in its usual place on that first page high in the upper margin, which has since been ruthlessly cut down, and thus led the writer of the Arabic inscription, from which Cyril derived his "tradition," to assume that she was the actual scribe.

Footnote [69] repeats this story, and the author there adds an anecdote about how he was assured by an abbess that a manuscript had been written by an ancient saintly woman, although he found the name of the man who wrote it in the manuscript itself.

Littlejohn · 11-11-2010, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Question (3)

Who was the "Thecla" so mentioned?
.

What do you think could it mean in antiquity the 'Thecla' name? .. (in reality an attribute)

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

Littlejohn · 11-11-2010, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

...A holy lady of that name was an early martyr for our faith, far to early indeed to be the writer of the book
.

According to the 'holy' lies of the fathers, the Christian martyrs would begin to make their appearance from the first century of our era ...

Quote:

Hence one is inclined to acquiesce in the acute conjecture of Dr. Tregelles, that whereas the New Testament portion of Codex A begins at Matt. Xxv. 6, which in the Greek Church forms a part of the proper less for the festival of that wise virgin S. Thecla, her name once stood in its usual place on that first page high in the upper margin, which has since been ruthlessly cut down, and thus led the writer of the Arabic inscription, from which Cyril derived his "tradition," to assume that she was the actual scribe.
.

"...which in the Greek Church forms a part of the proper less for the festival of that wise virgin S. Thecla......which has since been ruthlessly cut down.."

This is an explanation by 'priests' (regardless if was or not Tregelles a priest), that is from people who are strongly inclined to deceive others with extreme naturalness, since this too, from their point of view, it means to do the 'will' of God, since that lying for the good of the church means doing what God expects by priests! .. Another thing is the teaching by the people honestly motivated!

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

mountainman · 11-11-2010, 03:38 AM

Many thanks Toto,

It seems that one Cyril Lucaris on delivery of the codex c.1628 inserted a memorandum, described here by Nathaniel Lardner:

"This book of the scripture of the New and Old Testament, as we have received by tradition, was written by Thecla, a noble Egyptian woman, about thirteen hundred years ago, not long after the council of Nice."

Quote:

This information he seems to have obtained from an Arabic inscription on the reverse of the first leaf on the manuscript, also ascribing it to Thecla the martyr, …

I wonder if this "Arabic inscription" mentioning "Thecla" still exist? Would this be visible on the manuscript at the sites devoted to Alexandrinus?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you follow the footnotes in the wikipedia article, you will find the answers to your questions and you will see that the wiki editor has not fully represented the confusion in the source.

Footnote 7 takes you to the google books version of Six Lectures on the Text of the New Testament and the Ancient Manuscripts ... By Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener.

Quote:

p. 50-1
. . . Cyril [Lucar] had bought the book from Alexandria, where had before been Patriarch, and had himself inserted and subscribed in it a note importing that he had learnt from tradition that it was written by the hand of Thecla, a noble lady of Egypt, thirteen hundred years before, a little later than the Council of Nice, AD 325.

This information he seems to have obtained from an Arabic inscription on the reverse of the first leaf on the manuscript, also ascribing it to Thecla the martyr, …

Its connection to Thecla is less easy to be accounted for. A holy lady of that name was an early martyr for our faith, far to early indeed to be the writer of the book, and a namesake of hers, a friend of the great Gregory of Nazianzus in the fourth century, whom the probable date of the writing might suit, is not known to have been a martyr. Hence one is inclined to acquiesce in the acute conjecture of Dr. Tregelles, that whereas the New Testament portion of Codex A begins at Matt. Xxv. 6, which in the Greek Church forms a part of the proper less for the festival of that wise virgin S. Thecla, her name once stood in its usual place on that first page high in the upper margin, which has since been ruthlessly cut down, and thus led the writer of the Arabic inscription, from which Cyril derived his "tradition," to assume that she was the actual scribe.

Footnote [69] repeats this story, and the author there adds an anecdote about how he was assured by an abbess that a manuscript had been written by an ancient saintly woman, although he found the name of the man who wrote it in the manuscript itself.

mountainman · 11-12-2010, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Question (3)

Who was the "Thecla" so mentioned?
.

What do you think could it mean in antiquity the 'Thecla' name? .. (in reality an attribute).

If I had to back a runner for this question with a bookmaker I'd be putting my money on "Thecla" being the female companion of Paul in the Gnostic Acts of Paul and Thecla.

Littlejohn · 11-12-2010, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

What do you think could it mean in antiquity the 'Thecla' name? .. (in reality an attribute).
.

If I had to back a runner for this question with a bookmaker I'd be putting my money on "Thecla" being the female companion of Paul in the Gnostic Acts of Paul and Thecla.
.

I see you correctly have elaborated my suggestion ... However, this is only the first step ...

A question: 'to back a runner' does it mean to bet?

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

Toto · 11-12-2010, 08:57 AM

Yes, it means to bet.

There is no indication that the Thecla of the Acts of Paul is historical, or based on a historical person. The name Thecla is generally described as "from the ancient Greek name Θεοκλεια (Theokleia), which meant 'glory of God' from the Greek elements θεος (theos) meaning 'god' and κλεος (kleos) meaning 'glory'."

There are 5 other saints named Thecla.

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11-12-2010, 08:57 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Yes, it means to bet. There is no indication that the Thecla of the Acts of Paul is historical, or based on a historical person. The name Thecla is generally described as "from the ancient Greek name Θεοκλεια (Theokleia), which meant 'glory of God' from the Greek elements θεος (theos) meaning 'god' and κλεος (kleos) meaning 'glory'." There are 5 other saints named Thecla.

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