Freethought & Rationalism Archive

anethema · 05-29-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus

Quote:

He [S S] forbade conversion to Judaism under heavy penalties and enacted a similar law in regard to the Christians.

On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle

The "Historia Augusta" is almost universally derogated by mainstream scholars as having any!! historical certainty. Its a fairy tale close the gospels.

andrewcriddle · 05-29-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anethema

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus
On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle

The "Historia Augusta" is almost universally derogated by mainstream scholars as having any!! historical certainty. Its a fairy tale close the gospels.

It is more complicated than that.

a/ The "Historia Augusta" is a fictional rewrite of its sources.
b/ The author had access to good sources that have not survived, eg it is the only surviving literary source to mention Hadrian constructing Hadrian's Wall.

Hence it cannot be ignored in studying the 2nd century CE. (From Macrinus on it is largely worthless.) However it must always be used with caution.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 05-29-2012, 02:48 PM

FWIW Andrew I agree with your assessment.

la70119 · 05-29-2012, 09:32 PM

Likewise Andrew I agree with your knowledgeable opinion.

yalla · 05-30-2012, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus

Quote:

He [S S] forbade conversion to Judaism under heavy penalties and enacted a similar law in regard to the Christians.

On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History

Some semi-random quotes from Wiki re Historia Augusta

Firstly part of the disclaimer:
"The neutrality of this article's title, subject matter, and/or the title's implications, is disputed."

Then:
"..the true authorship of the work, its actual date, and its purpose, have long been matters for controversy.[citation needed] Major problems include the nature of the sources it used, and how much of the content is pure fiction"

"...Hermann Dessau, who had become increasingly concerned by the huge amount of anachronistic terms, Vulgar Latin vocabulary, and especially the host of obviously bogus proper names in the work"

"Among his supporting evidence was that the life of Septimius Severus would have appear to make use of a passage from the mid-4th century historian Aurelius Victor ..."

andrewcriddle · 05-30-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus
On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History

Some semi-random quotes from Wiki re Historia Augusta

Firstly part of the disclaimer:
"The neutrality of this article's title, subject matter, and/or the title's implications, is disputed."

Then:
"..the true authorship of the work, its actual date, and its purpose, have long been matters for controversy.[citation needed] Major problems include the nature of the sources it used, and how much of the content is pure fiction"

"...Hermann Dessau, who had become increasingly concerned by the huge amount of anachronistic terms, Vulgar Latin vocabulary, and especially the host of obviously bogus proper names in the work"

"Among his supporting evidence was that the life of Septimius Severus would have appear to make use of a passage from the mid-4th century historian Aurelius Victor ..."

There is widespread agreement that, although the Augustan History claims to be written in the very early 300's CE, it actually dates from the very late 300's CE.

However it uses much earlier sources.

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 05-30-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus
On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History

Some semi-random quotes from Wiki re Historia Augusta

Firstly part of the disclaimer:
"The neutrality of this article's title, subject matter, and/or the title's implications, is disputed."

Then:
"..the true authorship of the work, its actual date, and its purpose, have long been matters for controversy.[citation needed] Major problems include the nature of the sources it used, and how much of the content is pure fiction"

"...Hermann Dessau, who had become increasingly concerned by the huge amount of anachronistic terms, Vulgar Latin vocabulary, and especially the host of obviously bogus proper names in the work"

"Among his supporting evidence was that the life of Septimius Severus would have appear to make use of a passage from the mid-4th century historian Aurelius Victor ..."

There is widespread agreement that, although the Augustan History claims to be written in the very early 300's CE, it actually dates from the very late 300's CE.

Historia Augusta

Quote:

Among the many games that are played in the Historia Augusta is the invention of no less than 130 fake documents, most charmingly introduced in the introduction of the Life of Aurelian. Fake sources were not a new practice (cf. the invented letters in Plutarch's Life of Alexander).

What is new, however, is that the author the Historia Augusta invents sources to disagree with them.

This is, to the best knowledge of the author of this article, unique in ancient literature; the only possible (but unlikely) exception is, again, the source "Damis" that is used by Philostratus in his vie romancée of Apollonius of Tyana.

Are there parallels in the modus operandi of fake sources in the "Historia Ecclesiastica"? Almost without exception we are in agreement that the source for the stories of the so-called Christian persecutions are derived from Eusebius. Could Eusebius for exmple have invented Celsus and the proto-heretics - sources to disagree with the (Origenist) proto-orthodoxy? The possibility is intriguing. On the surface of the Historia Augusta is its dedication to Constantine the Great. Beneath the surface are an ocean of hypothetical authorship scenarios.

andrewcriddle · 05-31-2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Are there parallels in the modus operandi of fake sources in the "Historia Ecclesiastica"? Almost without exception we are in agreement that the source for the stories of the so-called Christian persecutions are derived from Eusebius. Could Eusebius for exmple have invented Celsus and the proto-heretics - sources to disagree with the (Origenist) proto-orthodoxy? The possibility is intriguing. On the surface of the Historia Augusta is its dedication to Constantine the Great. Beneath the surface are an ocean of hypothetical authorship scenarios.

One possible parallel between the Historia Augusta and Eusebius is the claim by some modern scholars that the Life of Elagabalus in the Historia is to some extent a parody of Eusebius' Life of Constantine.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 05-31-2012, 12:45 PM

Oh no. now you've done it.

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05-29-2012, 02:48 PM	#13
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	FWIW Andrew I agree with your assessment.

05-29-2012, 09:32 PM	#14
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	Likewise Andrew I agree with your knowledgeable opinion.

05-31-2012, 12:45 PM	#19
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Oh no. now you've done it.

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