FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-26-2012, 09:30 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default is there evidence for christians being officially persecuted under septimius severus?

After my deconstruction of eusebius in a previous thread I cant find any evidence for this claim. Indeed tertullian seems to say the opposite. Anyone find proof?
stephan huller is offline  
Old 05-26-2012, 11:13 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

Historia Augusta Life of Septimius Severus - He forbade conversion to Judaism under heavy penalties and enacted a similar law in regard to the Christians.

Not exactly the same thing. The only contemporary account of a martyrdom of the time which is extant, the Passio Perpetuae, the charge is still being a Christian, not having become one. The action must have been only carried on the local level. If Christians are in the same position as Jews and conversion alone is illegal, then simply being a Christian from birth is not illegal and Christianity itself is no crime.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 03:15 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default Persecution of Severus (200-211)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedia Coptic Persecutions
But when Septimius Severus by a special edict (about A. D. 200) forbade under severe punishment "to make Jews and Christians", the law applied to all subjects of the Roman Empire whether citizens or not; the Egyptian Church with its famous catechetical school of Alexandria, and the fresh impulse given by Demetrius to the diffusion of Christianity throughout the country, seem to have attracted the attention of the emperor, who had just visited Egypt. The school broke up just at that time; and its director, Clement of Alexandria, being obliged to leave Egypt, the youthful Origen attempted to reorganize it. He was soon arrested by the newly-appointed prefect Aquila. Shortly before, under Lætus, his father Leonidas had been the first victim of the persecution. Origen had earnestly encouraged him to stand firm in his confession, and was himself now longing for a martyr's death. His desire was frustrated through the efforts of his mother and friends. But he had the consolation of assisting and encouraging a number of his pupils who died for the faith. Plutarch, who had been his first disciple, Serenus (burnt), Heraclides, a catechumen, and Hero, a neophyte (both beheaded), a woman, Herais, a catechumen (burnt), another, Serenus (beheaded), and Basilides, a soldier attached to the office of Aquila. Potamiæna, a young Christian woman, had been condemned to be sunk by degrees in a cauldron of boiling pitch and was being led to death by Basilides, who on the way protected her against the insults of the mob. In return for his kindness the martyr promised him not to forget him with her Lord when she reached her destination. Soon after Potamiæna's death Basilides was asked by his fellow-soldiers to take a certain oath; on answering that he could not do it, as he was a Christian, at first they thought he was jesting, but seeing he was in earnest they denounced him and he was condemned to be beheaded. While waiting in jail for his sentence to be carried out some Christians (Origen being possibly one of them) visited him and asked him how he happened to be converted; he answered that three days after her death, Potamiæna had appeared to him by night and placed a crown on his head as a pledge that the Lord would soon receive him into his glory. Potamiæna appeared to many other persons at that time, calling them to faith and martyrdom (Euseb., "Hist. Eccl.", VI, iii-v). To these conversions, Origen, an eyewitness, testifies in his "Contra Celsum" (I, 46; P. G., XI, 746). Marcella, mother of Potamiæna, who likewise perished by fire, is the only other martyr whose name is recorded in authentic sources, but we are told of legions of Christians that were sent to Alexandria from all points of Egypt and Thebaid as picked athletes directed to the greatest and most famous arena of the world (Euseb., "Hist. Eccl.", VI, i).
Source : Eusebius Book VI.
Huon is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:50 AM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default Felicitas and Perpetua

Lucas Holstenius (Holste) 1596-1661.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedia
After his death there were published from his papers collections of synods and ecclesiastical monuments, the "Collectio romana bipartita" (1662), also the acts of the martyrs Perpetua and Felicitas, Boniface, Tarachus, Probus and Andronicus (1663).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedia
The Latin description of their martyrdom was discovered by Holstenius and published by Poussines. Chapters iii-x contain the narrative and the visions of Perpetua; chapters xi-ciii the vision of Saturus; chapters i, ii and xiv-xxi were written by an eyewitness soon after the death of the martyrs. In 1890 Rendel Harris discovered a similar narrative written in Greek, which he published in collaboration with Seth K. Gifford (London, 1890). Several historians maintain that this Greek text is the original, others that both the Greek and the Latin texts are contemporary; but there is no doubt that the Latin text is the original and that the Greek is merely a translation. That Tertullian is the author of these Acts is an unproved assertion. The statement that these martyrs were all or in part Montanists also lacks proof; at least there is no intimations of it in the Acts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedia
In a vision Perpetua saw her brother Dinocrates, who had did at the early age of seven, at first seeming to be sorrowful and in pain, but shortly thereafter happy and healthy. Another apparition, in which she saw herself fighting with a savage Ethiopian, whom she conquered, made it clear to her that she would not have to do battle with wild beasts but with the Devil. Saturus, who also wrote down his visions, saw himself and Perpetua transported by four angels, towards the East to a beautiful garden, where they met four other North African Christians who had suffered martyrdom during the same persecution, viz. Jocundus, Saturninus, Artaius, and Quintus. He also saw in this vision Bishop Optatus of Carthage and the priest Aspasius, who prayed the martyrs to arrange a reconciliation between them.
This story is a typical story of the martyrdom of any christian of the 2nd and 3rd century.
The latin text was discovered around 1660, the greek text around 1890.

The (certainly authentic... ) relics of Saint Perpetua were transferred to Rome in 439, then transported in France in 843 and preserved in Vierzon [center France, south of Paris) since 926.
Huon is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 10:07 AM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

The Acts of the Martyrs only represents a local problem. Tertullian who was also from Carthage often expresses love and devotion for Septimius Severus. The other claim comes from Eusebius and there are real problems with this account. The claim that there were persecutions in the 'tenth year of Septimius Severus' seems to be an error because the start of Demetrius's reign as bishop of Alexandria is actually dated to 'the tenth year of Commodus.' Also mount Vesuvius apparently blew its top in the tenth year of Septimius Severus and that was connected by one Judas the Jew with the events of the seventy weeks in Daniel and the coming of the (anti)Christ. Again I see no evidence of an actual persecution.
stephan huller is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 10:30 AM   #6
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bordeaux France
Posts: 2,796
Default

Stephan, please note :
- 10 + 5 egyptian martyrs during the persecution of Septimius Severus.
- Origen was allegedly an eyewitness, and was NOT beheaded or burnt alive.
- The Cath Encycl does not believe that Origen was the author of the Acts of Felicitas and Perpetua.
Huon is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 11:13 AM   #7
Regular Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 112
Default

Septimius Severus was an African general before becoming emporer. It is historically defensible that Severus persecution was a localized thing stemming from his time as governor of mauritania.
anethema is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 11:19 AM   #8
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: seattle, wa
Posts: 9,337
Default

I can see that there may have been persecutions of origen and those associated with him but being a christian per se was still okay
stephan huller is offline  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:20 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Auburn ca
Posts: 4,269
Default

I like the wiki links version lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septimius_Severus
outhouse is offline  
Old 05-29-2012, 01:22 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 4,876
Default

I think there is good evidence that a number of Christians died for their faith during the reign of Septimius Severus.

What is much less clear is whether Septimius Severus officially supported such persecution. The main piece of supposedly direct evidence is Historia_Augusta/Septimius_Severus
Quote:
He [S S] forbade conversion to Judaism under heavy penalties and enacted a similar law in regard to the Christians.
On the one hand the Augustan History had good sources, now lost, for the reign of Septimius Severus. On the other hand anything referring to Christianity in the Augustan History is prima-facie open to suspicion.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:43 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.