Clivedurdle

Can we discuss this fully without preconceptions of who wrote what in what language?

Assume Jesus is a myth and did not speak Aramaic. Was the purpose of the writer of Mark to make a direct connection with YHWH or not?

Chris Weimer

I posted this in the other thread about Jesus being a criminal, but alas, no one paid attention to me (now there is some sort of debate going on which is unintelligible).

Why else would they take "up stones to cast at him" after saying "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

The Greek is relating Aramaic, but it is possible that Jesus uttered the Tetragammon here. How long is the tradition of the taboo of YHWH? And would a messianic leader who proclaims himself the Son of God care about such a rule? Obviously, having his disciples eat on the Sabbath is a sin of the Ten Commandments proportion, so why would he care about rabbinic (aka heirs of the Pharisees, a constant butt of his polemics) tradition?

As for Mark 14, I'm guessing you're talking about v62, it could either be Mark's work or reflects the original source.

Clivedurdle

I am picking up the repercussions of someone claiming to be "I am".

For the writer of Mark to make this mystical Christ idea into flesh, he would have to make his fictional character claim to be YHWH, and any writer knowing their Jewish scriptures would know it is very blasphemous!

What discussion has there been about this?

Toto

There are obvious literary references that point to YHWH.

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'." (Exodus 3:14)

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)

But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mark 14:61-62)

Toto

I have read a lot of theorizing about this. The phrase in Greek is EGW EIMI. In Greek, EIMI by itself means "I am," so adding EGW emphasizes the 'I'. The phrase may be a formula, or refer to the Tetragrammaton, or have some mystical significance.

Quoting David Hindley on B-Greek
And from another poster on B-Greek

JoeWallack

JW:
I Am surprised at you Toto. I Am thinking you should have done your own search of the phrase in the Christian Bible:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...5027-9154.html
(These are Liars For Jesus but the info is freely available)

I Am sure you will notice that "EGW EIMI", Strong words #1473 and 1510, is the normal (skimming through I didn't even see any exceptions) phrase used (for everyone) when the emphasis is on identification as opposed to connection with a verb. I Am assuming this is why no major Bible scholar has even ever made "EGW EIMI" compared to "EIMI" an issue.



Joseph

I
is the first letter of the alphabet, the first word of the language, the first thought of the mind, the first object of affection. In grammar it is a pronoun of the first person and singular number. Its plural is said to be We, but how there can be more than one myself is doubtless clearer the grammarians than it is to the author of this incomparable dictionary. Conception of two myselfs is difficult, but fine. The frank yet graceful use of "I" distinguishes a good writer from a bad; the latter carries it with the manner of a thief trying to cloak his loot.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...yguid=68161660

http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html

Anat

On the tradition against the pronounciation of YHWH - Supposedly in second temple times only the high priest was permitted to pronounce the YHWH, in certain ceremonies, but people who had heard the pronounciation made illegitimate use of it (probably a reference to magic), so the priests stopped pronouncing it in out loud, and instead mumbled it incomprehensively. Only During Yom Kippur, when the high priest entered the Holy of Holies he was supposed to say it out loud.

There were also traditions about other, longer, divine names (including one of 24 letters) that were known to the priests.

(This is all from memory, but I read it many years ago in Seffer ha-Agada' by Bialik and Ravnitzky)

JoeWallack

JW:
Mark 14: (KJV)
61 "But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."

I already indicated to Toto here that the phrase used for "I am" here, "EGW EIMI", is a common phrase in Greek and used throughout the Christian Bible. It's unlikely that "Mark's" Jesus was supposed to be making some Type of reference to God here for the following reasons:

1) The phrase is a common phrase used throughout the Christian Bible.

2) "EGW" is normally added to "EIMI" when the emphasis is identification (as opposed to Ideification).

3) The context of the related story is identification:
62 "And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.
66 And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:
67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
68 But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew."

Jesus' affirmation of his identity is contrasted with Peter's denial of Jesus' identity.

4) "EGW EIMI", "I am", is probably the best possible combination of identity and affirmation.

5) "EGW EIMI", "I am", is probably the clearest answer to the Priest's preceding question "Art thou the Christ?"

6) Any comparison to God would not fit the Christology of any of the Christian Bible especially "Mark" which has the lowest Christology and a Jesus who is farthest from God.

7) The different languages make it unlikely that "Mark's" audience (course maybe he just did it for him and Ed) would make a connection between a common Greek phrase in Chapter 14 that was supposedly translated from Aramaic and an ususal description used by God in Exodus that was supposedly translated from Hebrew. Especially since "Mark's" Roman audience wouldn't be all that familiar with Exodus.

8) And, as the British say, the cruncher is that "EGW EIMI" isn't generally the phrase used by most Greek translations of Exodus anyway.

9) "Mark" had already set up the phrase "I am" earlier (surprise) in the context of identification:

13: (KJV as adjusted for lying)
6 "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am; and shall deceive many."

As a side note observe that "Mark" has now painted himself into a corner as to why exactly anyone should believe that Jesus was the Messiah:

1) Based on what Jesus did no one was convinced he was the Messiah.

2) By Jesus' own words whether or not the Messiah says he is the Messiah is meaningless.

3) No one knew that "Mark's" Jesus was resurrected.

"Mark's" reason that people should believe that Jesus was the Messiah is "Mark's" Gospel (understand dear Reader?). Not very good evidence when presented by an anonymous person who also presented us with 1) - 3) (picture of David Spade saying, "And you are?")

"Mark" puts himself in this situation due to his Ironic Literary contrivance:

Mark 12: (KJV)
28 "And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question."

Ironic Literary contrivance that while "The Jews" are hounding Jesus with insincere questions that only generate insincere answers, they can't get enough of him. When finally Jesus is asked a sincere question that generates a sincere response The Jews shut up.

Mark 14KJV)
60 "And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?"

Ironic Literary contrivance that while "The Jewish Leaders" are hounding Jesus with insincere questions about who he is, they can't get enough of him. When finally Jesus is asked a sincere question that generates a sincere response The Jewish Leaders stop asking.

Consider "Mark's" build up of how it ever came to this:

14: (KJV)
1 "After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people."

So when did they end up taking Jesus and putting him to death, on the feast day, in the largest Jewish city, on the most attended holiday, in the most public place, in front of the most important people and witnessed by everyone. Hmmm, what's that phrase I Am searching for, oh yeah, Ironic Literary Contrivance.

"Mark" is not primarily writing History here, "Mark" is primarily writing commentary on history. "The Jews" didn't believe Jesus was the Jewish Messiah based on what he supposedly did, didn't believe him when he said he was the Messiah and didn't believe he was resurrected. After he died his Jewish movement failed him. It was the non Jews (depicted as Romans) who believed Jesus was the Jewish Messiah even though they never witnessed what he did, said or that he was resurrected. "Mark's" Jesus never tells the Roman leader (Pilate) that he is the Messiah, yet Pilate wonders. "Mark's" Jesus doesn't do anything for "The Romans" (centurion) except give evidence that he failed, "Why have you forsaken me?" and die, yet the centurion believes. Ironic Literary Contrivance.

Vork, this is primarily for you. I think you need to either remove your question regarding 14:62 from your site or at least indicate that it's not a very good question. Getting back to Toto:

Even though I've demonstrated above that it's unlikely the "I am" of 14:62 was intended to be a divine reference I have thought of a few ways Jesus could have made it clearer that he was only answering a question in context rather than also making a subtle/not subtle comparison to God:

1)
High Priest:
"Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

Jesus:
(Feigning dribbling and with perfect Marv Albert imitation) "Jesus, behind the three point Ark (shoots), Yes!


2)
High Priest:
"Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

Jesus:
"As the token black guy said in the classic "HolyGhostbusters!", "If a Supreme Priest ever asks you if you are a god, say yes!"


3)
High Priest:
"Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

Jesus:
(Bending at the knees with thumbs out pointing to himself and perfect Henry Winkler imitation but in Latin) Correctehmundo.


4)
High Priest:
"Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

Jesus:
"I am" and I have a disclamer that "I am" is not intended to refer in any way to Numero Alepho, The Big Cheezus, El Number 1, the Big Kohana or any other person/entity alive, dead or undead.


5)
High Priest:
"Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?"

Jesus:
(Jesus' smart Jew boy attorney (who ends up getting Jesus off with a small fine and some community service - probably what really happened anyway) motions for Jesus to be silent and says, "We're not saying Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and we're not saying he isn't.")



Joseph

I
is the first letter of the alphabet, the first word of the language, the first thought of the mind, the first object of affection. In grammar it is a pronoun of the first person and singular number. Its plural is said to be We, but how there can be more than one myself is doubtless clearer the grammarians than it is to the author of this incomparable dictionary. Conception of two myselfs is difficult, but fine. The frank yet graceful use of "I" distinguishes a good writer from a bad; the latter carries it with the manner of a thief trying to cloak his loot.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Error...?yguid=68161660

http://hometown.aol.com/abdulreis/myhomepage/index.html

Clivedurdle

Vork is interesting here