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Old 08-16-2009, 07:55 PM   #11
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Please stick to the topic.

This sounds very much like the way that YHWH hardened Pharoah's heart so He could reign his terror over Egypt, smiting and killing Egyptian babies and others.

There is a basic confusion at the heart of monotheism. If you think that there is only one god who is the ruler of the Universe, you have to believe that everything that happens was ordained by this god, including evil and evil people, so you have to invent a purpose for all of the divinely ordained evil.

Either that or deny the reality of human existence.
The reality is, you quoted a half sentence: first the Egyptians caused the terror. It says so in the same source you quoted!

(Exo 7:1) So the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
(Exo 7:2) You are to speak everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh that he must release the Israelites from his land.
(Exo 7:3) But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and although I will multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt,
(Exo 7:4) Pharaoh will not listen to you. I will reach into Egypt and bring out my regiments, my people the Israelites, from the land of Egypt with great acts of judgment.
(Exo 7:5) Then the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD, when I extend my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites out from among them.

It appears to me that Toto is correct. God will (future tense) harden Pharoahs' heart. The immediate reason is in verse 5.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:53 AM   #12
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Consider this from Sura 2, verse 6-7:

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As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
The Quran directly says that Allah has made some people incapable of believing in him and that he still punishes them for it.

Predeterminination (at least in the above case) was seen as dubious even by muslims themselves (the Mu'tazilites for example)...It's obvious that a rational muslim could reasonably challenge this paragraph...although few will do it publicly (the same old problem...any attempt at important reform - for example that the Qur'an was created - is likely to be branded 'blasphemous', punishable by death).

Muslims against sharia and Definition of a moderate muslim - A giant step in the right direction, these are the real moderate muslims...reason must always play an important role in religion (but I really doubt that this initiative will have a sizeable impact, on short run, in the dogmatic muslim world; at the moment the situation it's like trying to take the loaded guns from some kids, unaware of the danger, playing with them*...the adverse reaction in the absence/rejection of critical thinking will be, obviously, extreme - this does not mean that there are not rational muslims, unfortunately they have to hide at the moment...). All respect for such courageous people (the acceptation of responsibility for the evils done in the name of Islam is especially important, the recognition that the crusades were not really unprovoked acts of aggression included)...The only way to really reform Islam (the Islam of the last 1400 years is certainly not moderate) is indeed to renounce the view that the Qur'an is the exact, eternal, word of Allah in favor of the view that it was created** and capable of evolution; thus not without error (the harsh treatment of unbelievers, minorities etc being erroneous or valid only in the remote past***). Now it is debatable that such a strongly reformed religion is still Islam (although some argue that if one accepts minimally the five pillars of [sunni] Islam then one is a muslim)...anyways it leaves unanswered the question of why should Muhammad still be seen as a model for modern human beings...

*I owe this analogy to Mughal (if I remember well) although he used it only in the burkha problem...

**by Muhammad (be it only at the unconscious level), although influenced by higher powers; further transformed by the early muslims

***similar to the view of moderate Christians about the Bible (especially the Old Testament)
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