mountainman

Is this an example of Arius' satire
on the Roman execution of Jesus?

Athansius' Four Discourses ... Chapter II.—Extracts from the Thalia of Arius

mountainman

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil



The translation of Athanasius above is from Cardinal Newman, published in 1844.
Is anyone aware of any more recent translations of Athanasius' Four Discourses
Against the Arians available online?

jaguar

atheist ask for proof the of Resurrection from outside the bible. when they get it, they ignore it.

mountainman

But this is not proof of any resurrection since it does not mention the resurrection and since it was written 300 years after the fictional event. A large number of people in this forum have rejected the possibility that Arius of Alexandria was a non-christian satirist.

How could a Christian have written these words?

‘The heaven,’ as the Prophet says, ‘was astonished,
and the earth shuddered ’ at the transgression of the Law.

But the sun, with greater horror,
impatient of the bodily contumelies,
which the common Lord of all voluntarily endured for us,
turned away, and recalling his rays
made that day sunless.

How graphic is that? The author - whom Athanasius states is Arius of Alexandria - seems to place Sol Invictus in a higher position that "the common Lord". This indicates to my way of thinking that Arius was not your common garden variety christian but in reality a non-christian Greek satirist.

BC&H members and moderators have repeatedly asked for proof that Arius was a non-christian satirst. when they get it, they ignore it. I think this deserves an explanation. How on earth could the mind which authored this be considered a "Christian mind"? I will be very interested to consider any explanation as to how anyone can think Arius of Alexandria was a christian when he authors a statement which describes that the Sun Himself abandoned the passion of the common Lord with horror and impatience.

Toto

What I see here is a poetic description of the sun and the earth reacting sympathetically to the crucifixion. Sol Invictus is not in a higher position that Jesus - Sol is an onlooker reacting to the evil portrayed in the cosmic drama.

What are your credentials in literature? What makes this satire? Who is the object of this satire? Where is the ribald humor that Romans used in satire?

mountainman

Since when is a "sympathetic" reaction described as "impatient"?
The sun is portayed as "having a fit of passions".


Jesus and his "passion" is being offet by the sun and his passion. The non-christians (ie: pagans, Greeks, etc) thought it was preferable to describe the darkness which followed the storytale of the crucifixion as the sun abandoning the landscape. The sun is made the subject of the rhetoric, and not your man.


This is being cited via the "Super-Orthodox" Athanasius. Where are the writings of Arius direct? Where are the writings of Julian direct? They have been destroyed and burnt by the followers of the orthodoxy - Athanasius and Cyril who author the preserved refutations "AGAINST" these authors.

The ribaldness is not lost on Athanasius:

And shall not all human kind at Arius’s blasphemies
be struck speechless, and stop their ears,
and shut their eyes, to escape hearing them
or seeing their author?

andrewcriddle

IMO the author here is Athanasius himself not Arius. Athanasius begins by referring to Jeremiah's claim about the distress of the heaven and earth at the breaking of the Law. Athanasius goes on to refer to the Gospel account in which the Sun displays even greater distress at the crucifixion of the common Lord (= Lord of All). Athanasius goes on to predict similar distress among humans when confronted by the blasphemies of Arius. Andrew Criddle

mountainman

Hi Andrew,

I did originally consider this as an option. There does not appear to be any other english translation of the greek available other than this version from 1844. I found a version of the greek, but have not had the time to even try and identify the location of the section 7 in the greek. However here are the reasons by which I eventually considered that Athanasius is citing a fragment of Arius:

1) The extract itself is located as the third section in Chapter II which is itself entitled Extracts from the Thalia of Arius.

2) The first and second sections of this chapter, labelled 5 and 6 are replete with citations from Arius, interpersed with comments from Athanasius, such as "And the mockeries which he utters in it, repulsive and most irreligious".

3) The second section of this chapter (Section 6) immediately prior to the cited section 7 (which I have already cited in the opening post) concludes with this:

With such words hath the irreligious spoken; maintaining that the Son is distinct by Himself, and in no respect partaker of the Father. These are portions of Arius’s fables as they occur in that jocose composition.

4) Immediately after the cited section, the following context:

Rather, will not the Lord Himself have reason to denounce men so irreligious, nay, so unthankful, in the words which He has already uttered by the prophet Hosea, ‘Woe unto them, for they have fled from Me; destruction upon them, for they have transgressed against Me; though I have redeemed them, yet they have spoken lies against Me.’ And soon after, ‘They imagine mischief against Me; they turn away to nothing.’ For to turn away from the Word of God, which is, and to fashion to themselves one that is not, is to fall to what is nothing. For this was why the Ecumenical Council, when Arius thus spoke, cast him from the Church, and anathematized him, as impatient of such irreligion. And ever since has Arius’s error been reckoned for a heresy more than ordinary, being known as Christ’s foe, and harbinger of Antichrist.

This seems to me to indicate that authoritarian Athanasius is typically fond of citing the authority in the bible if and only if he can find it in the bible. However we all know he did not find the cited verse in the bible. This leaves us with two options. Either Arius was the author of the verse about the sun, or for some reason Athanasius breaks out into poetry himself, which I doubt. The verse in question is suitably hedged in with horrible sounding invectives against Arius, which culminate in Arius being compared to the very enemy of Christ himself, and the forerunner of "Antichrist".

5) Athanasius effectively tells us that Arius was a satirist. Three times in this text Athanasius compares the writing of Arius to that of Sotades - a greek political satirist.

(a) But neither can a Christian bear to hear this, nor can he consider the man who dared to say it sane in his understanding. For with them for Christ is Arius, as with the Manichees Manichus; and for Moses and the other saints they have made the discovery of one Sotades.

(b) Arius, taking no grave pattern, and ignorant even of what is respectable, while he stole largely from other heresies, would be original in the ludicrous, with none but Sotades for his rival.

(c) And so too, this counterfeit and Sotadean Arius, feigns to speak of God, introducing Scripture language, but is on all sides recognised as godless Arius, denying the Son, and reckoning Him among the creatures

Sotades

Quote:

(Greek: Σωτάδης; 3rd century BC) was an Ancient Greek poet. Sotades was born in Maroneia, either the one in Thrace, or in Crete. He was the chief representative of the writers of obscene satirical poems, called Kinaidoi, composed in the Ionic dialect and in the "sotadic" metre named after him. The sotadic metre or sotadic verse is one that reads backwards and forwards the same, as “llewd did I live, and evil I did dwell.” These verses have also been called palindromic Sotades lived in Alexandria during the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285 BC-246 BC). One of his poems attacked Ptolemy's marriage to his own sister Arsinoe, from which came the infamous line: "You're sticking your prick in an unholy hole."[1] For this, Sotades was imprisoned, but he escaped to the island of Caunus, where he was afterwards captured by Patroclus, Ptolemy's admiral, shut up in a leaden chest, and thrown into the sea. Only a few genuine fragments of Sotades have been preserved; those in Stobaeus are generally considered spurious. Ennius translated some poems of this kind, included in his book of satires under the name of Sola. Sotades was also the author of some of the first recorded palindromes, and many credit him with the invention of that particular genre of composition.

.

On account of these five reasons I think it is reasonable to consider that Athanasius is reluctantly citing this another shocking verse (about the sun) as authored by Arius. Whether or not it was called for, I think that the verse itself is a satire on the passion of christ.

jakejonesiv

According to Mark 15:33 darkness was over the whole land from the sixth to the ninth hour. This could mean nothing other than the sun disappeared.

And immediately with the departure of the sun, Jesus allegedly cries out some unintelligable words which were apparently misunderstood. Who did Jesus allegedly call out to from the cross?

According to Mark 15:34, he calls for God. We would normaly expect to find Theos. But instead the text jarringly reverts to Aramaic. Eloi Eloi lema sabchthani. Even Matthew finds that unacceptable,and changes it to some pidgin Hebrew/Aramaic; Eli Eli lema sabachthani. Something strange is going on here.

Some of those standing right there, according to Mark 15:35, had an entirely different opinion of what Jesus said. According to the tale, they thought Jesus was calling for Elias. But Elias in Greek is not just the name of the OT prophet Elijah, it very close to the sun ('elios/helios). What is Elijah most famous for? Rising into heaven in a chariot of fire, and horses drawn by fire! 2 Kings 2:11. Elias has calling down fire from heaven as his "signature move." 1 Kings 18:38; 2 Kings 1:10, 12, 14; 2:11. There is an obvious link in riding in the sun god chariot. The name Elias may be derived from the Greek Helios/Elios. It is easy to recognize this as a sun god motif.

[At least some in ancient Israel observed the Zodiac and worship Helios, the Greek sun god. This is illustrated by 2 Kings 23:11. "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire."]

Thus, the sun disappears, and Jesus *immediately* cries out something very much like, "'Elios! 'elios! Why have you forsaken me?"

But we aren't finished yet. On "Easter" morning, what had risen? The sun (anateilantos Mark 16:2) or Jesus (hgerqh Mark 16:6) or both? Yes, they both rise together!

In the Mithraic bas-relief from Heddernheim Germany, http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/img/13300.jpg
we see Mithras meet "the Sun (Helios, Sol) who kneels before him; they shake hands in agreement and ride off together in the chariot of the Sun." _The Ancient Mysteries_, edited by Marvin W. Meyer, page 201.

Helios abandons Jesus. Jesus cries out "Helios Helios,why have you forsaken me?" Eventually, Helios and Jesus unite (as did Mithras and the Sun) and they both rise together.

Jake Jones IV

mountainman

Thanks Jake,

But does Helios' abandonment of Jesus occur with horror and impatience?

I take it that this translation is pretty "free".