WCH

Untrue. Luke 3:23-24 "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi..."

Definitely not through Mary in that one, nor anything biological, since it traces to the man whom Luke claims was not Jesus' father.

How about Matthew, then? Matthew 1:15-16 "Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." (emphasis added)

Not through Mary there, either, except through marriage, and Matthew is very clear that they were not married when Jesus was conceived. Also not biological because, again, it traces down to Joseph, not Mary.

Please, in the future, at least check your sources before you post.

converted

It is pretty obvious that you went to the wrong church. Church is not supposed to be about guilt and legalism at all. Instead it is supposed to be about love.

Here is a link to a website with Sermons from my Pastor. I recommend downloading and listening to the MP3s for July 4, 2004 and June 29, 2003.
http://www.mtnvineyard.org/Sermons.htm That is what church is supposed to be like.

Magus55

Oh I have trust me. This is a common alleged contradiction on this board (to which ive answered numerous times), but it requires understanding how geneologies were done in Hebrew.

Geneologies were always done with the man. The women was considered under the headship of the man, and the man was mentioned instead of the women, even when its her geneology. Also notice the geneologies are written different. Luke stars with Mary, and goes back to Adam. Matthew starts with Abraham and goes to Joseph. Luke was not written to the Jews, so he used the biological geneology. Matthew was, and He used the legal one. Luke also mentions Mary 11 times in His first 3 chapters, leading up to her geneology. And, in Luke 3:23: . . .being supposedly the son of Joseph. . ., the supposedly indicates that its Mary's geneology since Jesus wasn't the biological son of Joseph.

Here is a complete explanation.

http://www.carm.org/diff/2geneologies.htm

You can believe it to be a contradiction all you want, but based on many factors, including culture and literary style, not mentioning Mary's name in the Geneology is quite common. The authors and compilers of the Bible weren't so dense as to not notice this or notice it, but throw it in anyway and hope no one would notice. They understood what it meant.

Opera Nut

I cannot accept your statement that I went to the "wrong church". You have missed the point. IN fact, now i'm sorry I am wasting my energy arguing with you. I have other things to do that are more important.

After the severe mental and emotional scarring that I and many other people have been through, I am NOT going to take a chance on going to another church and get verbally assaulted by a minister telling me I'm sinful. That's why I refuse to set foot in ANY Church that calls itself "Christian". The only building with "Church" on the front I will go in is Unitarian-Universalist, and they are not Christians.

You never heard me screaming at a preacher after church, screaming at him about how his sermon made me want to CRAWL IN A HOLE AND DIE. I could flip back into Post Traumatic Stress again. I have too much respect for myself now to subject myself to that kind of abuse. Christianity did NOT teach me self respect. I had to learn it the hard way. I had to get away from the guilt and control they wield, and just do one thing:

WALK AWAY.
yes, WALK AWAY.


ALL Christians subscribe to the doctrine of original sin.

Therefore, all Christians start with the giant putdown of ALL HUMANS just for being human, because of a couple of fruit-munching simpletons in the Garden of Eden. For one thing I don't believe that Adam and Eve ever existed.

You cannot have Christianity without Original Sin, so therefore all Christianity is about telling you and me that we are BAD, we are SINNERS.

That is not about love and acceptance, no matter how much you try to cover it up with blather about love.

The way I would put it, as an atheist, is that all people make mistakes, but I would not call it sin. Sin means "missing the mark".

Everybody makes mistakes, but I hope people learn from their mistakes and do better. I would call it right and wrong, not sin. Atheists have morality without religion.

But I certainly would not scare the shit out of people with visions of hellfire and brimstone.

Christians also say that if you don't accept their God, you are going to hell.

Then then say you have free will. That is not free will, that is coercion and duress.

Telling a person with a finite life that there is the possibility of infinite punishment in hell, is NOT loving. It's mean and nasty and punitive.

Besides, I cannot be tortured in hell, if hell exists, because I won't have a body!!

"It's YOUR GOD, YOUR RULES, YOU BURN IN HELL!!! " -- Bumper Sticker



"All I know is that if God loves me half as much as my mother does, He will not send me to Hell." --- Lin Yutang, The Importance of Living, 1936.

winstonjen

Then the church isn't following the bible very accurately.

Pyrrho

I suppose I should admit up front that I have not read all 14 pages of this thread, so if this has already been stated, I apologize for the redundancy.

None of the countless contradictions in the Bible are much of a problem, because believers are able to endlessly twist and torture the meanings of the words of the text to suit their desires (not to mention the very high tolerance that most religious people have for contradictions, which are then relabeled "unknowable mysteries"). Reason and logic have nothing to do with religion, and that is why religions always forbid using reason regarding certain religious matters, and why it is regarded as "sinful" to even think about certain things. To apply reason to religion is to put it to a trial for which it is by no means fitted to endure.

converted

Whoa there big fella. Chill out a bit. I am afraid that you are mistaken. There are non-legalistic Christian churches that do not rail away that you are full of sin and going to hell because of it. Mine does not. The Pastor of my church goes up front every week and says how he screwed up this week and what all his flaws are. He does not go up there and rail away at people. My church says everyone makes mistakes (i.e. everybody sins...), but they do not say you are going to hell because of it. The whole reason Jesus died was to be a sacrifice for the forgiveness of all persons sins. Original sin to me means, people were given free will to choose to do right or wrong and since no human is or ever was perfect (i.e. except for Jesus), everyone sins.

Here is a guess... I believe that you likely attended a Catholic church when you were growing up because every person I interact with that is Catholic says "it is all about guilt...". That is not what my church is about.

converted

Different churches twist the message in the Bible different ways. My church does not focus on guilt, sin, legalism, and trying to be perfect. They focus on Love, and relationshipd and prayer and forgivenes. Perhaps you should try a variety of churches prior to putting them all in a small box...

Opera Nut

Nope. Never set foot in a catholic church, except for a wedding or 2.

Grew up in a Presbyterian church and went to a Presbyterian university. Got a damn fine education, including some very non dogmatic religion classes. I was used to being around educated Presbyterians who treat church more like a social club. I was not around fundies.

Later I went to other churches. The one that really messed me up was a Baptist church. Missionary Baptist to be exact. Spending two weeks in the county mental institution after a suicide attempt with a knife was not fun. The people at this church would not help me find a job. I was willing to help them spread their message if they had only paid me. The preacher was filthy rich. I decided that if they were God's representatives on earth, then God didn't want me to find a job, and God wanted me to starve to death, since they weren't helping me, and i had run thru my savings, had no where to turn for money, and decided that attempting to off myself to end my pain was the only reasonable answer.

Since they did not help me find a job, and in fact drove me nuts, I now speak out against Christians and their hypocrisy. I don't have forever to find the right church that WILL help me find a job. Too bad for you. Christians seem to spend LOTS of time explaining away the non loving actions of their fellow Christians. If they were loving they wouldn't have to explain it away with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

I have been to the following others: Unity, Episcopalian, United Methodist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, UCC (United Church of Christ-Congregationalist)not holy roller, Classical Reform Synagogue, modern Reform synagogue, Mahayana Buddhist Temple, Vajrayana Buddhist services, Hindu Temple, Unitarian-Universalist.

I have always been treated with the utmost courtesy and respect in the
NON Christian houses of worship and I include the Unitarian-Universalists which are mostly atheist/agnostic/secular humanists.

I consider myself a Unitarian Universalist, and have for a number of years.

I consider Christianity and Islam to be quite arrogant and reprehensible and Judaism to be somewhat bad, but less so than the other two. At least in Judaism you can be intellectual and ask questions, without leaving your brain at the door.

The only philosophies I will seriously study now, after my extensive investigations, are Unitarian-Universalist, Hindu, and Buddhist.

I refuse to set foot in any more Christian churches, or associaet with any Christians, because of the doctrine of original sin and the whole concept that we are sinners because we are breathing and alive, and the whole idea that Jesus died for our sins. I don't need anybody dying for my sins. I subscribe to a higher morality that says "Don't hurt anybody or any animal intentionally". No exceptions, no Jesus dying etc.


Pyrrho is right. Asking questions is not accepted.

Opera Nut

I've spent enough years of my life beating myself up for not being perfect, for not getting in to medical school, for not being rich and successful.

I don't need to be reminded about forgiveness either.

We all make mistakes. I am not any better than anybody else. I am not going to go around and tell other people they are gonna burn in hell. I mind my own business, and don't snoop around, worrying about whether other people are screwing someone they are not married to, or drinking too much alcohol, or gambling, or cussing, or working on Sunday, or whatever.

Forgiveness is something we can do for each other and we don't need God for forgiveness. We just need to help each other and reach out, since God does not exist, in my experience.