Freethought & Rationalism Archive

QuestionMark · 01-17-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unrealist42

Quote:

Originally Posted by figuer

That is as absurd as what Rannia said, as no one denies that the reputed ancestors of todays Jews lived there before the Arabs.

I do believe that there were some people already living there when the Israelites arrived from their extended wanderings after decamping from Egypt. I believe they were called Palestinians... er.... Philistines and they continued to live there alongside the Israelites.

While we know the nine tribes of the Israelites were eventually all expelled from these lands or taken away into captivity, there is no mention that the Phillistines were so they are probably still there.

Besides that, the Jews are only from the tribe of Judah so really they only have claim to Judea, not all of Israel.

Judea, like the West Bank?

QM?

figuer · 01-17-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unrealist42

I believe they were called Palestinians... er.... Philistines and they continued to live there alongside the Israelites... there is no mention that the Phillistines were so they are probably still there..

Is there any evidence to consider the historical Philistines as directly related to today's Palestinians?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unrealist42

Besides that, the Jews are only from the tribe of Judah so really they only have claim to Judea, not all of Israel.

They don't have a claim to anything, anymore than the modern English have a claim over Germany because they are "Germanics", or Mexicans a claim over Italy because they are "Latin" and "Roman Catholic"....or I a claim to the throne of Spain.

J-D · 01-17-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unrealist42

Quote:

Originally Posted by figuer

That is as absurd as what Rannia said, as no one denies that the reputed ancestors of todays Jews lived there before the Arabs.

I do believe that there were some people already living there when the Israelites arrived from their extended wanderings after decamping from Egypt. I believe they were called Palestinians... er.... Philistines and they continued to live there alongside the Israelites.

While we know the nine tribes of the Israelites were eventually all expelled from these lands or taken away into captivity, there is no mention that the Phillistines were so they are probably still there.

Besides that, the Jews are only from the tribe of Judah so really they only have claim to Judea, not all of Israel.

Actually, there's no evidence for extended wanderings after decamping from Egypt--there's no evidence for any decamping from Egypt. There's no evidence of any interruption in continuous settlement in the relevant period.

There's also no evidence for 'the nine tribes of the Israelites' or for the tribe of Judah.

Hence, even if there were a real connection between the Philistines and the modern Palestinians, there would still be no evidence that the Philistines were there first.

Nobody knows who was there first--and even if we did, it would have no contemporary political relevance.

Jehanne · 01-17-2008, 07:49 PM

Moving to BC&H.

capsaicin67 · 01-17-2008, 08:03 PM

corroborate

Toto · 01-17-2008, 08:09 PM

This is the key point:

Quote:

The archeologist, who rose to international prominence for her recent excavation that may have uncovered King David's palace, most recently uncovered the remnants of a wall from Nehemiah.

The dig is being sponsored by the Shalem Center, a Jerusalem research institute where Mazar serves as a senior fellow, and the City of David Foundation, which promotes Jewish settlement throughout east Jerusalem.

spin · 01-17-2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by unrealist42

Besides that, the Jews are only from the tribe of Judah so really they only have claim to Judea, not all of Israel.

Judea, like the West Bank?

Judea ended with Benjamin, didn't it.

spin

Malachi151 · 01-17-2008, 09:04 PM

Looks like a whole lot of speculation to me. I don't see that it confirms anything, other than that the name "Temech" was a real name.

Minimalist · 01-17-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

The fact that this cultic scene relates to the Babylonian chief god seemed not to have disturbed the Jews who used it on their own seal, she added.

So....allegedly fiercely monotheistic Jews are shown worshipping a pagan god?
This is fairly earthshaking. The Copenhagen school - which claims that Judaism was a creation of the Hellenistic era - may be right after all.

Damn. Great find.

Minimalist · 01-17-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

The archeologist, who rose to international prominence for her recent excavation that may have uncovered King David's palace, most recently uncovered the remnants of a wall from Nehemiah.

Mazar's attribution to Nehemiah was just trashed by Tel Aviv University's archaeology department.

http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/arch...nfo/ta34-2.pdf

Quote:

Abstract
Recent excavations at the City of David have revealed a set of massive walls constructed of large undressed stones. Excavator Eilat Mazar has presented them as the remains of a single building, which she labelled the ‘Large Stone Structure’. Mazar interpreted the ‘Large Stone Structure’ as part of a big construction complex, which had also included the ‘Stepped Stone Structure’ on the slope. She dated her ‘Large Stone Structure’ to ca. 1000 BCE and identified it as the palace of King David. We argue that: (1) the walls unearthed by Mazar do not belong to a single building; (2) the more elaborate walls may be associated with elements uncovered by Macalister and Duncan in the 1920s and should possibly be dated to the Hellenistic period; (3) the ‘Stepped Stone Structure’ represents at least two phases of construction— the lower (downslope) and earlier, possibly dating to the Iron IIA in the 9th century BCE, and the later (which connects to the Hasmonaean First Wall upslope) dating to the Hellenistic period.

01-17-2008, 07:49 PM	#24
Jehanne Veteran Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,567	Mod note. Moving to BC&H.

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01-17-2008, 08:03 PM	#25
capsaicin67 Contributor Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gold coast plain, sea, scrubland, mountain range. Posts: 20,955	corroborate

01-17-2008, 09:04 PM	#28
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Looks like a whole lot of speculation to me. I don't see that it confirms anything, other than that the name "Temech" was a real name.

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