skepticdude

The only thing that matters when having a disagreement with somebody else, is, can you convince them that you have the better argument?

Convincing someone that you have the better argument does not require you to have truth. You could simply be very good at sophistry in making false beliefs look like the truth.

Since truth obviously doesn't matter (during a dispute between two parties), it seems that the only thing that matters is whose position is more rational.

That's important, because while skeptics might be wrong to deny the possibility of miracles, they are not irrational for doing so.

I bring this up because most Christians who love apologetics, are under the impression that skeptics are irrational. We might be wrong, of course, but refusal to believe miracle stories doesn't mean we are irrational.

We simply find that large crowds of eyewitnesses can be wrong, have been wrong (especially in religious matters or in situations where emotions are running high, or when the claimants stand to benefit greatly if the story is believed), and therefore, conformity with our own past experience of how the world works (i.e., people who die, stay dead) remains the proper criteria for knowing which hypothesis is more rational to believe.

This therefore refutes the biblical notion that unbelievers secretly know the gospel is true and are merely willfully ignorant. Fundies can no longer insist that skeptics are irrational for denying the gospel.

This is a strong rebuttal to the biblical notion that unbelievers are "without excuse". The idea that all skeptics know the gospel is true and merely choose to willfully deny it, is absurd, and appears to come from a very desperate Christian who ran out of arguments fast and decided that ad hominems made his job a whole lot easier.

mountainman

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spamandham

I think you've misinterpreted the target audience for that absurd line of argument. The target audience is believers, not nonbelievers.

Toto

I think that when believers accuse skeptics of being irrational, they are just throwing the word at skeptics to ward off an attack on their own state of rationality. I don't think that there is any deep analysis behind the charge.

Is there something about Biblical Criticism or History that you wanted to discuss?

skepticdude

Well, Romans 1:18, of course, which is the passage most fundies use to prove that all people know the gospel is true, or at least know that God is real, contrary to their profession of true lack of belief.

The discussion could involve two questions: Which is more rational:

1) An ancient author from 2000 years ago can speak more truthfully about what a modern individual truly believes, than the individual herself, or

2) Is Romans 1:18 ff talking about atheists or any modern person anyway? In context, it appears to be limited to the ancient Israelites. Otherwise the fundies must find a way to prove that us modern atheists worship four-footed beasts. The context, given all it's past tense phrasing, makes Paul refer to things that had already happened before his own time, so fundies have the burden to show that modern people are also described within the past-tense context. Good luck.

Until that day, Romans 1:18 ff is shown to be yet another bible text misinterpreted by the people who want to interpret it correctly the most; Christians.

andrewcriddle

I think you may be blurring two issues.

Some Christians (with arguable support in Romans 1 and other Biblical sources), would claim that everyone (in some sense) knows that (some sort of) God exists.

This is very different from claiming that everyone really knows that the Christian Gospel is true. I am not aware of any significant Christian figure making the second claim.

Andrew Criddle

nickpecoraro

There is more to convincing people than having good arguments.
The women in my life always seem to get their way by screaming and being nasty.
My boss gets his way by intimiating me with threats of firing me.

In my opinion, Christianity has convinced people by threats, ridicule, and physical intimidation. If someone has the power to stick a hot poker up my butt, I would cheerfully testify that Jesus is certainly the son of God who rose from the dead.

Nick Pecoraro

skepticdude

sounds like your wife and your boss are Christians