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Old 07-01-2006, 07:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman
Josephus paint a different picture of "the Galilaeans".
The lawless inhabitants of the region, fleeing both Roman
and Jewish authoritarian rule. Nothing about fish.
Sorry for all the same posts earlier...IIDB kept going down and I didn't realize that my posts had already gone through...

Anyways, I don't see what Josephus has to do with this. He was not talking about the fishing industry in Galilee. Fishing was and still is big business in the Sea of Galilee. There simply is no way around the fact whether Josephus saw fit to mention it or not. As I've mentioned (accidentally) three or four times now, it was simply a fitting symbol. Even if there was a pagan "fish" symbol, the Christian symbol could have and most likely would have grown independently of the supposed existence of a pagan "fish" symbol.
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Old 07-01-2006, 07:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Clivedurdle
There are a lot of stories about the sea and fish in the gospels and acts! Why might that be?
Um...perhaps because they were written by people who lived in around the Mediterranean and Sea of Galilee and some of them were fishermen? :banghead:

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Old 07-01-2006, 08:08 PM   #13
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Oh yes....and an anchor was also an ancient Christian symbol. I wonder why?
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Old 07-02-2006, 03:32 PM   #14
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http://www.atheists.org/christianity/fish.html

This site is arguing on similar lines, but I would like to see academic backing for this.

Seriously, might there by mythological reasons for all the water and fish related stories in the gospels and acts?

My earlier link clearly notes the unexpectedness of the sea was directly related to satan. Jesus's death is directly related to Jonah.

Water is of course one of the elements in alchemic thinking. What might be going on mythologically that we have lost the meaning of because of our historicist fetish?

It is too easy to comment that this stuff follows geography, I see it as probably deliberate - gnostic secret teaching?
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Old 07-02-2006, 03:39 PM   #15
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Interestingly, Holding misses the point completely!

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/fishsymbol.html
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Old 07-02-2006, 03:55 PM   #16
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The New Testament (Rheims 1582)

34 matches.

The Holy Gospel Of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew

Chapter 4

[18] And Jesus walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea (for they were fishers).
[19] And he saith to them: Come ye after me, and I will make you to be fishers of men.

Chapter 7

[10] Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?

Chapter 13

[47] Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, and gathering together of all kind of fishes.

Chapter 14

[17] They answered him: We have not here, but five loaves, and two fishes.
[19] And when he had commanded the multitudes to sit down upon the grass, he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitudes.

Chapter 15

[34] And Jesus said to them: How many loaves have you? But they said: Seven, and a few little fishes.
[36] And taking the seven loaves and the fishes, and giving thanks, he brake, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the people.

Chapter 17

[26] But that we may not scandalize them, go to the sea, and cast in a hook: and that fish which shall first come up, take: and when thou hast opened its mouth, thou shalt find a stater: take that, and give it to them for me and thee.

The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Mark

Chapter 1

[16] And passing by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother, casting nets into the sea (for they were fishermen).
[17] And Jesus said to them: Come after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

Chapter 6

[38] And he saith to them: How many loaves have you? go and see. And when they knew, they say: Five, and two fishes
[41] And when he had taken the five loaves, and the two fishes: looking up to heaven, he blessed, and broke the loaves, and gave to his disciples to set before them: and the two fishes he divided among them all.
[43] And they took up the leavings, twelve full baskets of fragments, and of the fishes.

Chapter 8

[7] And they had a few little fishes; and he blessed them, and commanded them to be set before them.

The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Luke

Chapter 5

[2] And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.
[6] And when they had done this, they enclosed a very great multitude of fishes, and their net broke.
[9] For he was wholly astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken.

Chapter 9

[13] But he said to them: Give you them to eat. And they said: We have no more than five loaves and two fishes; unless perhaps we should go and buy food for all this multitude.
[16] And taking the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed them; and he broke, and distributed to his disciples, to set before the multitude.

Chapter 11

[11] And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Chapter 24

[42] And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb.
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. John

Chapter 6

[9] There is a boy here that hath five barley loaves, and two fishes; but what are these among so many?
[11] And Jesus took the loaves: and when he had given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down. In like manner also of the fishes, as much as they would.

Chapter 21

[3] Simon Peter saith to them: I go a fishing. They say to him: We also come with thee. And they went forth, and entered into the ship: and that night they caught nothing.
[6] He saith to them: Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and you shall find. They cast therefore; and now they were not able to draw it, for the multitude of fishes.
[8] But the other disciples came in the ship, (for they were not far from the land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.
[9] As soon then as they came to land, they saw hot coals lying, and a fish laid thereon, and bread.
[10] Jesus saith to them: Bring hither of the fishes which you have now caught.
[11] Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, one hundred and fifty-three. And although there were so many, the net was not broken.
[13] And Jesus cometh and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish in like manner.

The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians

Chapter 15

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/r/rheim...size=First+100

I think it is agreed seven is a number with theological overtones. Why might bread, which is turned by jesus into his flesh, and fish, another type of flesh according to Paul, be brought together miraculously, using seven units?

Might it have direct links to baptism and the eucharist and therefore the alleged miracle of the loaves and fishes is a teaching mechanism about the beliefs of xianity?

Might the discrepancies in the numbers in the various gospels be deliberate to teach something?

(If it looks like a myth, quacks like a myth...)
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Old 07-02-2006, 04:03 PM   #17
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Put "water" into the umich search, and see what happens! all of the examples have clear theological meanings.

And people seriously think this is a historical record?

Quote:
The New Testament (Rheims 1582)

100 matches.

The Holy Gospel Of Jesus Christ, According to St. Matthew

Chapter 3

[11] I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.
[16] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
Chapter 8

[18] And Jesus seeing great multitudes about him, gave orders to pass over the water.
[28] And when he was come on the other side of the water, into the country of the Gerasens, there met him two that were possessed with devils, coming out of the sepulchres, exceeding fierce, so that none could pass by that way.
[32] And he said to them: Go. But they going out went into the swine, and behold the whole herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea: and they perished in the waters.
Chapter 9

[1] And entering into a boat, he passed over the water and came into his own city.
Chapter 10

[42] And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
Chapter 14

[22] And forthwith Jesus obliged his disciples to go up into the boat, and to go before him over the water, till he dismissed the people.
[28] And Peter making answer, said: Lord, if it be thou, bid me come to thee upon the waters.
[29] And he said: Come. And Peter going down out of the boat, walked upon the water to come to Jesus.
[34] And having passed the water, they came into the country of Genesar.
Chapter 16

[5] And when his disciples were come over the water, they had forgotten to take bread.
Chapter 17

[14] And when he was come to the multitude, there came to him a man falling down on his knees before him, saying: Lord, have pity on my son, for he is a lunatic, and suffereth much: for he falleth often into the fire, and often into the water.
Chapter 27

[24] And Pilate seeing that he prevailed nothing, but that rather a tumult was made; taking water washed his hands before the people, saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just man; look you to it.
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Mark

Chapter 1

[8] I have baptized you with water; but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
[10] And forthwith coming up out of he water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit as a dove descending, and remaining on him.
Chapter 6

[45] And immediately he obliged his disciples to go up into the ship, that they might go before him over the water to Bethsaida, whilst he dismissed the people.
Chapter 8

[13] And leaving them, he went up again into the ship, and passed to the other side of the water.
Chapter 9

[21] And oftentimes hath he cast him into the fire and into waters to destroy him. But if thou canst do any thing, help us, having compassion on us.
[40] For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
Chapter 14

[13] And he sendeth two of his disciples, and saith to them: Go ye into the city; and there shall meet you a man carrying a pitcher of water, follow him;
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. Luke

Chapter 3

[16] John answered, saying unto all: I indeed baptize you with water; but there shall come one mightier that I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Chapter 7

[44] And turning to the woman, he said unto Simon: Dost thou see this woman? I entered into thy house, thou gavest me no water for my feet; but she with tears hath washed my feet, and with her hairs hath wiped them.
Chapter 8

[24] And they came and awaked him, saying: Master, we perish. But he arising, rebuked the wind and the rage of the water; and it ceased, and there was a calm.
Chapter 11

[24] When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through places without water, seeking rest; and not finding, he saith: I will return into my house whence I came out.
Chapter 13

[15] And the Lord answering him, said: Ye hypocrites, doth not every one of you, on the sabbath day, loose his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead them to water?
Chapter 16

[24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Chapter 22

[10] And he said to them: Behold, as you go into the city, there shall meet you a man carrying a pitcher of water: follow him into the house where he entereth in.
The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ, According to St. John

Chapter 1

[26] John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not.
[31] And I knew him not, but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[33] And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Chapter 2

[6] Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.
[7] Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
[9] And when the chief steward had tasted the water made wine, and knew not whence it was, but the waiters knew who had drawn the water; the chief steward calleth the bridegroom,
Chapter 3

[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[23] And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized.
Chapter 4

[7] There cometh a woman of Samaria, to draw water. Jesus saith to her: Give me to drink.
[10] Jesus answered, and said to her: If thou didst know the gift of God, and who he is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou perhaps wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
[11] The woman saith to him: Sir, thou hast nothing wherein to draw, and the well is deep; from whence then hast thou living water?
[13] Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever:
[14] But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.
[15] The woman saith to him: Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come hither to draw.
[28] The woman therefore left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men there:
[46] He came again therefore into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain ruler, whose son was sick at Capharnaum.
Chapter 5

[3] In these lay a great multitude of sick, of blind, of lame, of withered; waiting for the moving of the water.
[4] And an angel of the Lord descended at certain times into the pond; and the water was moved. And he that went down first into the pond after the motion of the water, was made whole, of whatsoever infirmity he lay under.
[7] The infirm man answered him: Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pond. For whilst I am coming, another goeth down before me.
Chapter 7

[38] He that believeth in me, as the scripture saith, Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Chapter 13

[5] After that, he putteth water into a basin, and began to wash the feet of the disciples, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Chapter 19

[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.
The Acts of the Apostles

Chapter 1

[5] For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence.
Chapter 8

[36] And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized?
[38] And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him.
[39] And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord took away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.
Chapter 10

[47] Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we?
Chapter 11

[16] And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said: John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
The First Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians

Chapter 3

[6] I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase.
[7] Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[8] Now he that planteth, and he that watereth, ate one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.
The Second Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians

Chapter 11

[26] In journeying often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils from my own nation, in perils from the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils from false brethren.
The Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians

Chapter 5

[26] That he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life:
The First Epistle of St. Paul to Timothy

Chapter 5

[23] Do not still drink water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thy frequent infirmities.
The Epistle of St. Paul to the Hebrews

Chapter 9

[19] For when every commandment of the law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Chapter 10

[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water.
The Catholic Epistle of St. James the Apostle

Chapter 3

[11] Doth a fountain send forth, out of the same hole, sweet and bitter water?
[12] Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear grapes; or the vine, figs? So neither can the salt water yield sweet.
The First Epistle of St. Peter the Apostle

Chapter 3

[20] Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
The Second Epistle of St. Peter the Apostle

Chapter 2

[17] These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved.
Chapter 3

[5] For this they are wilfully ignorant of, that the heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God.
[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
The First Epistle of St. John the Apostle

Chapter 5

[6] This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth.
[8] And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.
The Catholic Epistle of St. Jude the Apostle

Chapter 1

[12] These are spots in their banquets, feasting together without fear, feeding themselves, clouds without water, which are carried about by winds, trees of the autumn, unfruitful, twice dead, plucked up by the roots,
The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle

Chapter 1

[15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as in a burning furnace. And his voice as the sound of many waters.
Chapter 7

[17] For the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, shall rule them, and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Chapter 8

[10] And the third angel sounded the trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, burning as it were a torch, and it fell on the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters:
[11] And the name of the star is called Wormwood. And the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Chapter 11

[6] These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and they have power over waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues as often as they will.
Chapter 12

[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth after the woman, water as it were a river; that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.
Chapter 14

[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the noise of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder; and the voice which I heard, was as the voice of harpers, harping on their harps.
[7] Saying with a loud voice: Fear the Lord, and give him honour, because the hour of his judgment is come; and adore ye him, that made heaven and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Chapter 16

[4] And the third poured out his vial upon the rivers and the fountains of waters; and there was made blood.
[5] And I heard the angel of the waters saying: Thou art just, O Lord, who art, and who wast, the Holy One, because thou hast judged these things:
[12] And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon that great river Euphrates; and dried up the water thereof, that a way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun.
Chapter 17

[1] And there came one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials, and spoke with me, saying: Come, I will shew thee the condemnation of the great harlot, who sitteth upon many waters,
[15] And he said to me: The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and nations, and tongues.
Chapter 19

[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of great thunders, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord our God the Almighty hath reigned.
Chapter 21

[6] And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the end. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely.
Chapter 22

[1] And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
[17] And the spirit and the bride say: Come. And he that heareth, let him say: Come. And he that thirsteth, let him come: and he that will, let him take the water of life, freely.
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Old 07-02-2006, 04:19 PM   #18
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Neptune anyone? He could walk on water, he was a "fisher of men".



Notice fish in hand.





http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/a.../armerina.html

Those images are all from the 3rd adn 4th century, but its probably safe to say that they are based on much older concepts.
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Old 07-02-2006, 06:21 PM   #19
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Are you guys for real, or are you just goofing around?? This is about the most absurd thing I've ever heard of....

Fish and fishing were a common theme nearly everywhere there was a large lake or body of water, especially along the mediterranean.

What I'd like to know is how on earth you can dismiss the fact that Jesus, with his apostles, spent most of his ministry around and on the Sea of Galilee, its fish, and its fishing market?? How on earth can you, with any seriousness on your face at all, really believe that Jews would have adopted symbols they knew were pagan when they preached against pagans??

How can you deny that fish, fishing, and anchors could at the very least be independently developed symbols, yet more likely reasonable symbols developed from the knowledge of where Jesus spent so much of his ministry??

....just blows me away...some will just try anything to deny any reason or independant thinking to Christianity... Please... :huh:
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Old 07-02-2006, 06:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haran
How on earth can you, with any seriousness on your face at all, really believe that Jews would have adopted symbols they knew were pagan when they preached against pagans??
Umm....



Helios and zodiac (12 deciples) in the middle of Jewish synagogue.

Same here:



The Jews heavily integrated elements from Zoroastrianism and Hellenistic religions from 200 BCE to 600 CE.
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