makerowner

The issue isn't whether or not I would forgive them, but whether Jesus would. I'd like to think I would, but I can't know until I'm in that situation. Jesus says that he will never forgive them. What possible reason do you have to think that 'never' means something different in this case?

I looked at the context and didn't see anything especially relevant. I'm asking whether you have something to say about the context that explains the apparent contradiction, or whether you just want me to do your research for you.

juergen

I'm confused. In other words, it's no different than any other sin one hangs on to, that gets forgiven once someone stops commiting it? Lying? Stealing? Killing? Adultery? Being a homersexual? Why would Jesus, as he's talking about what's eternally forgivable and what's not, single out a sin as exception, when the same thing can be said about a number of completely different sins?

What about all those people that acknowledge that Christ is God, but call things, that other Christians call the work of the Spirit, evil? I'm thinking about more conservative Christians calling out things happening in Pentecostal churches, for example.

Thanks.

rhutchin

Jesus is taking advantage of the circumstances under which the Pharisees have come to challenge Him. The Pharisees have declared that Jesus is empowered by Satan to heal people (and thereby to deceive them). Jesus then draws a distinction between that word spoken against the son of man (relating to that which Christ says) and a word spoken against the Holy Spirit (relating to the Spirit's testimony about who Christ is). If a person denies who Christ is (i.e., that He is God) then that person can never have forgiveness. So long as that person continues to deny who Christ is, he can never receive forgiveness (How could he since this requires that he believe on Christ?). Should a person recognize his blasphemy and change so that he acknowledges Christ to be God, then his former blasphemy becomes irrelevant. Now the issue is whether he will submit to the Christ that he acknowledges to be God.

Within the church, we have one group that looks at the Scriptures and understands them to say one thing. Another group reads the same Scriptures and understands them to say something else. When Jesus referred to people speaking against the son of man, He was referring, in part, to the confusion that exists when people do not understand difficult texts or are just ignorant of what the Bible says. Through the inability to understand the Scripture or just plain ignorance, people sin and blaspheme. It happens. One denomination should not call another denomination evil because of this. Ignorant, yes; evil, no.

George S

So ignorance of the law is no excuse, eh?

What makes my nether parts as cold as a well-digger's stones as he stands in five feet of water is that this proposed God is so inept that his final word of Truth for All Time is open to interpretation at all.

Why on earth (or heaven) would any being who wanted to get the rules out only explain these rules to a chosen few? And then include in his holy book clear contradictions?

Christians are a sect of Judaism. Judaism rests on the supposed fact that a particular named god (YHVH is his name) chose a subset of humanity for special favors.

The gross unfairness of such a god (described by the authors as jealous) and presented with the morality of a petulant child is simply, well, not believable.

makerowner

That still doesn't make any sense. Juergen asked how blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is different from any other sins in your view. A liar will never have forgiveness if he never repents, right? Same with a murderer or an adulterer. So why would Jesus specifically say that blasphemers against the Holy Spirit would never have forgiveness, if he meant that this sin was the same as all the others? You've still given no reason to understand 'never' as anything different other than your squeamishness.

punk77

It is according to Mark 3:28-35. There is no mention of forgiveness there. It has a totally different ending to Matt 12. (Which throws up the "belly of the whale/3 days - 3 nights" contradiction).

So your reply throws up yet another contradiction - why did Jesus not tell his audience in Mark 3:28-35 that they could be saved (after telling them that they couldn't - 'But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,...') whilst he told the audience in Matt 12 that they could according to you:

KJV
Mark 3:28-35
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God'..." As far as the Pharisees were concerned they were doing the will of God (according to the religious texts that they were using then) and AFAIK they did not believe that God was made up of different parts.

rhutchin

No difference. Again the distinction is in the type of sin involved. A person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit (rejects that Jesus is God) can never be saved unless they stop blaspheming the Holy Spirit. In contrast, a person who sins does not have to become perfect in order to be saved and is not required to be perfect after God saves him in order to maintain his salvation.

Whoever is doing the will of God, however imperfectly, is saved so long as he is not blaspheming the Holy Spirit at the same time. If a person is blaspheming the Holy Spirit, then he can not offset this "eternal sin" by working to do the will of God. The Pharisees, in blaspheming the Holy Spirit, made all their good works worthless.

rhutchin

The person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness unless he first stops his blasphemy. The person who lies, or commits any other sin, can be forgiven even though he does not stop being a liar. The sanctification process that follows the justification of the person leads to a person rejecting the sin in his life so that he turns away from his lying, stealing, adultery, and other sin. Some sins may be given up immediately while others may not. However, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be given up before a person can even be saved.

rhutchin

God choses to save a few. God need only explain what He is doing to those few. God also wants those who are not to be saved to know what is going on, so that if they do not like that outcome, they can do something about it. Everyone should know their eternal destiny and be comfortable with that destiny.

GenesisNemesis

What's the point of everyone else? There's not much fulfillment in that.