Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Transplanar · 09-07-2006, 04:06 PM

I have heard many thiests say that God gave mankind the gift of free will. But I got to thinking just today: when did we recieve this gift? Were we immediately given free will at the moment we were created, or did it come later? The story of Adam and Eve and they're eating of the Fruit of Knowlege complicates this.

If we assume we were given free will at the moment of our creation, then that means that we possessed free will before we had knowlege of good and evil, and therefore it is proven true that free will can exist in the absense of evil (contrary to what Christians claim).

If we did not have free will before the apple, then there are two problems that come out of that. For one, that means that our choice to eat the fruit was not a choice. But disregarding that, let's say for the sake of arguement we did not have "true" free will until we ate the fruit. Assuming that, there is still the problem of why we were punished for that, when free will is supposed to have been a gift. That's like handing someone a present then punching them in the face for taking it from you. It does not make sense, then, that God would punish us for something he presumably was giving us out of the goodness of his heart. It also implies that God did not intend for us to have free will (the OOG concept makes this even more complicated).

Your thoughts?

Malachi151 · 09-07-2006, 04:24 PM

This is what happens when people overthink ancient myths....

First of all, the whole "free will" idea in relation to this story came from the Christians, hundreds of years later, after the concept of "free will" had been developed in Greek philosophy.

It is, again, trying to backread something into a story in which it never origionally existed.

dongiovanni1976x · 09-08-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transplanar

I have heard many thiests say that God gave mankind the gift of free will. But I got to thinking just today: when did we recieve this gift? Were we immediately given free will at the moment we were created, or did it come later? The story of Adam and Eve and they're eating of the Fruit of Knowlege complicates this.

If we assume we were given free will at the moment of our creation, then that means that we possessed free will before we had knowlege of good and evil, and therefore it is proven true that free will can exist in the absense of evil (contrary to what Christians claim).

If we did not have free will before the apple, then there are two problems that come out of that. For one, that means that our choice to eat the fruit was not a choice. But disregarding that, let's say for the sake of arguement we did not have "true" free will until we ate the fruit. Assuming that, there is still the problem of why we were punished for that, when free will is supposed to have been a gift. That's like handing someone a present then punching them in the face for taking it from you. It does not make sense, then, that God would punish us for something he presumably was giving us out of the goodness of his heart. It also implies that God did not intend for us to have free will (the OOG concept makes this even more complicated).

Your thoughts?

:notworthy:

Quote:

"A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code. Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a 'tendency' to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he had no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free."
- Rand, A. (1961). For the New Intellectual. New York, New York: Random House

dongiovanni1976x · 09-08-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transplanar

free will can exist in the absense of evil (contrary to what Christians claim).

Can you provide an example of one of these claims...?

Joan of Bark · 09-08-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transplanar

If we assume we were given free will at the moment of our creation, then that means that we possessed free will before we had knowlege of good and evil, and therefore it is proven true that free will can exist in the absense of evil (contrary to what Christians claim).

There was no absence of evil at the time of the Garden of Eden:

"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ... "
Gen 2:17

"and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:5 (NIV)

I assume what you meant is that free will can exist before the knowledge of evil. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God's command. But then, how were they to know that it was wrong to disobey God?

Transplanar · 09-09-2006, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Can you provide an example of one of these claims...?

I'm merely citing an arguement thiests frequently use, saying that evil is neccesary for us to have true free will, for without it we cannot appreciate the goods of the world.

Quote:

I assume what you meant is that free will can exist before the knowledge of evil. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God's command. But then, how were they to know that it was wrong to disobey God?

I assumed that without knowlege of evil, one cannot do evil (at least most malicious evils, they obviously can make mistakes at the expense of others, etc). Even if they could do evil, as you say, they wouldn't know it to be evil, so it's a lose-lose situation regardless.

trivium · 09-20-2006, 02:06 PM

From a Christian perspective I can tell you that even Christians disagree about this issue (I'm sure many of you know that). As Transplansar mentioned, he has heard Christians say that "God gave mankind the gift of free will." As someone who believes the Bible, I can tell you that does not appear in Scripture. Some Christians believe in what is known as "Libertarian free will," while others like myself believe that free will is limited, in the sense that it is only as free as the nature is free. In other words, our will is free to express our character.

On the issue of Adam in the garden: Technically, Adam is the only person who had true free will (free in the sense that his decisions were uninfluenced by a sin nature), every one born after Adam is a sinner by nature (Eph.2:3), by choice (Rom. 3:23), and lastly, by divine declaration (Rom. 3:9).

What many (even Christians) misunderstand, is that sin is a condition and not just a transgression.

James Brown · 09-20-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

I assume what you meant is that free will can exist before the knowledge of evil. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God's command. But then, how were they to know that it was wrong to disobey God?

What's more, if Eve had no knowledge of good or evil, then how did she know that the fruit was "good for food"?

Transplanar · 09-20-2006, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trivium

Some Christians believe in what is known as "Libertarian free will," while others like myself believe that free will is limited, in the sense that it is only as free as the nature is free. In other words, our will is free to express our character.

Could you elaborate on that?

That still leaves the problem of why God would give us such freedom and then punish us for what he knew we were bound to do anyway. What purpose does it serve to create so many souls and then waste so many to send them to hell/not-heaven (I say that because there doesn't seem to be a consensus on what hell actually is like, if it exists at all (as opposed to "outer darkness")).

trivium · 09-20-2006, 05:51 PM

Sure, I can elaborate on Libertarian free will. Basically, libertarian free will says that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances. They believe man is totally and completely autonomous. His actions are not influenced by ANYTHING, not even his wants or desires. Therefore, when asked what caused the person to choose one action over another, they will answer that a free act is when NO CAUSAL, ANTECEDENT, LAWS OF NATURE, DESIRES OR OTHER FACTORS are sufficient to incline the will decisively to choose one option or another.

I believe this is wrong because the will must have its roots in moral causation in order to produce character. I believe, that as Charles Spurgeon said, "The will is not an independent mechanism in the head, but a function of a character." Thus, because man is in bondage to sin, his will ALSO is in bondage to sin, and therefore he has a sinful NATURE. And since nature cannot act above itself, man cannot choose that which is outside of its nature.

09-07-2006, 04:06 PM	#1
Transplanar Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 146	Free Will and the Fall of Man: A Contradiction I have heard many thiests say that God gave mankind the gift of free will. But I got to thinking just today: when did we recieve this gift? Were we immediately given free will at the moment we were created, or did it come later? The story of Adam and Eve and they're eating of the Fruit of Knowlege complicates this. If we assume we were given free will at the moment of our creation, then that means that we possessed free will before we had knowlege of good and evil, and therefore it is proven true that free will can exist in the absense of evil (contrary to what Christians claim). If we did not have free will before the apple, then there are two problems that come out of that. For one, that means that our choice to eat the fruit was not a choice. But disregarding that, let's say for the sake of arguement we did not have "true" free will until we ate the fruit. Assuming that, there is still the problem of why we were punished for that, when free will is supposed to have been a gift. That's like handing someone a present then punching them in the face for taking it from you. It does not make sense, then, that God would punish us for something he presumably was giving us out of the goodness of his heart. It also implies that God did not intend for us to have free will (the OOG concept makes this even more complicated). Your thoughts?

09-20-2006, 02:06 PM	#7
trivium New Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 2	Free Will and the Fall of Man: A Contradiction From a Christian perspective I can tell you that even Christians disagree about this issue (I'm sure many of you know that). As Transplansar mentioned, he has heard Christians say that "God gave mankind the gift of free will." As someone who believes the Bible, I can tell you that does not appear in Scripture. Some Christians believe in what is known as "Libertarian free will," while others like myself believe that free will is limited, in the sense that it is only as free as the nature is free. In other words, our will is free to express our character. On the issue of Adam in the garden: Technically, Adam is the only person who had true free will (free in the sense that his decisions were uninfluenced by a sin nature), every one born after Adam is a sinner by nature (Eph.2:3), by choice (Rom. 3:23), and lastly, by divine declaration (Rom. 3:9). What many (even Christians) misunderstand, is that sin is a condition and not just a transgression.

09-20-2006, 05:51 PM	#10
trivium New Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 2	Free Will and the Fall of Man: A Contradiction Sure, I can elaborate on Libertarian free will. Basically, libertarian free will says that a person is fully able to perform some other action in place of the one that is actually done, and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances. They believe man is totally and completely autonomous. His actions are not influenced by ANYTHING, not even his wants or desires. Therefore, when asked what caused the person to choose one action over another, they will answer that a free act is when NO CAUSAL, ANTECEDENT, LAWS OF NATURE, DESIRES OR OTHER FACTORS are sufficient to incline the will decisively to choose one option or another. I believe this is wrong because the will must have its roots in moral causation in order to produce character. I believe, that as Charles Spurgeon said, "The will is not an independent mechanism in the head, but a function of a character." Thus, because man is in bondage to sin, his will ALSO is in bondage to sin, and therefore he has a sinful NATURE. And since nature cannot act above itself, man cannot choose that which is outside of its nature.

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09-07-2006, 04:24 PM	#2
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This is what happens when people overthink ancient myths.... First of all, the whole "free will" idea in relation to this story came from the Christians, hundreds of years later, after the concept of "free will" had been developed in Greek philosophy. It is, again, trying to backread something into a story in which it never origionally existed.

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